Katrina Browne on slavery apology at CNN.com
Posted August 19th, 2009 by James DeWolf PerryToday, filmmaker Katrina Browne is the author of a commentary on CNN.com, entitled “Slavery needs more than an apology.”
In this opinion essay, Katrina writes about the significance of the U.S. Senate apology for slavery and discrimination, and offers her thoughts, as a descendant of U.S. slave traders, about what comes next.
August 19th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
I ready your article on CNN titled Slavery needs more than an apology. While I agree with a lot of what you say, there is one issue that I would like to bring up and possibly hear your thoughts on.
You talk about the gap in education due to funding, etc. I am an educator. I taught in the Memphis City School district for 8 years. ( Currently I teach in different district). The average per student expenditure for Tennessee is $7,113 (2009). The per student expenditure in Memphis City Schools is $10,366 (07-08) while the surrounding area schools expenditure is $7,908 (07-08). Memphis City Schools is 86.1% African American and 7% White while the surround district, Shelby County, is 55% white and 36% African American.
When you talk about the education gap and funding, yes I see it, but it is the inverse of what you suggest.
Like I said, I taught in that system for 8 years. I could no longer take the apathetic attitudes that were expressed by the parents and students toward education. Therein lies the gap that I view is more important than dollars.
Again, I agree with many of the other things you said in your commentary, but I cannot agree that there is a funding gap that is detrimental to African Americans when it comes to education.
August 19th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
The bellyaches of the author, Kathrina Browne, a 4th generation slave trader descendant does nothing productive at all.
Her condescention deprive the blacks of USA of their integrity, and in effect perpetuates the plantation ethics of taking care of the feeble blacks being descendent from the inferior branch of Homo Sapiens in need of being taken care of.
Kathrina Browne does a lot of patting her own shoulder, hoping to be seen as someone who Really Cares.
August 19th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
Once again the old adage rings true: “If you have one foot in yesterday and the other foot in tomorrow, you only wind up pissing on today.”
NOBODY can – or should – feel like they owe an apology for what their ancestors were guilty of. The only way we can really make positive efforts at moving forward as a society is dealing with current situations.
Why has there not been a concerted effort at getting the powerful tribes (who captured the weaker tribe members to sell to the Europeans) to issue public apologies and provide reparations? I’ll tell you why..in Africa the past has been forgiven. Congress’s “apology” was a token gesture at best, brought on by unreasonable pressures from blacks and guilt ridden whites – that would include you, Katrina.
Everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY, just needs to get over it! It happened, it was a bad thing, it was resolved, it is over.
Once we resolve to accept that it happened and it won’t happen again, then – and only then – can we stop pissing all over our todays and think about better tomorrows.
August 19th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
I am of European (and some Native American) descent. Many of my ancestors came to America in the late 1600s and 1700s. Some were slave-owners and some were not. I was encouraged to see a commentary on the CNN website that spoke of empathy and the need to help others, especially those who are restrained by historic social prejudices. At a time when our culture is so focused on personal advancement despite its affect on others or our environment, it is nice to hear (or read) the words of a compassionate voice. Thank you.
August 19th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
thank you.
August 19th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
Karma is something that affects societies and nations as well as individuals. Not that an apology isn’t due, but let’s not forget that a terrible price has already been exacted against the western European population of America for this unspeakable crime against humanity. The American Civil War took more lives, as a percentage of population, THAN ANY OTHER WAR IN HUMAN HISTORY. The price for this crime has been paid in blood and suffering to a level that no other society has ever paid, before or since.
That struggle continues of course. Even though we now have an African-American president, we are not yet a “post-racial” society. But there is hope in the new generation. Look at the 20-somethings today and you’ll see an almost total dis-regard for race in who is dating and sleeping with who.
The stain of racial division will be washed away by the continued immigration from East Asia, India and Latin America. It’s already an accomplished fact on both coasts and is making steady inroads in much of America. Give it another 30 years and the remaining racists will all be white-bearded old crackpots.
August 19th, 2009 at 7:07 pm
Sorry dear.
I do not think any apology is needed anymore for what happened 3 generations-plus ago.
Our generation has spent time, money,and many resources to put this behind our countries past. As long as people in the U.S. use there country of origin before American they will cause tensions among all in America,IE African American etc.
People like you keep opening the wounds that have been treated….
How about an Apology for what was done to the Native Americans, Better yet give us our land back and leave us alone.
August 19th, 2009 at 7:39 pm
Thanks for picking at the scab one more time in order to make money for yourself and elevate your status in whatever apologist circles you run in. Now that you are done whining, and equating poverty with crime when we all know it is a matter of making decisions, what do you propose as a solution? Easier admissions to college for Blacks? Done. “Black only” colleges/clothing/events/awards shows? Done. Public assistance programs, free public schools, black-only college funds, preferential small business loans? Done. A Black President? I mean, seriously…
And the big missive here: what are your solutions? Higher taxes for whites? Maybe we imprison every descendant of slave owners for 30 days. Why don’t we just enslave whites for 10 years to even it out. Go read “The Bell Curve” and write another essay….
August 19th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
With all due respect, Katrina is an exceptionally poor writer. It’s as though she was writing in her diary and decided to publish it. There’s nothing concrete to hold onto here, and she plays the role of apologist rather than advancing the debate.
August 19th, 2009 at 8:08 pm
You are free to give away as much in arrears, estate, land, and profit you think you are personally responsible for to random strangers.
You are also free to try to convert others into your dogma of Marxist-flavored White Guilt.
We are free to oppose you and your obvious agenda the second it leaves the gate.
Kids in your own nation, neighborhood, even within your own family and bloodline grow up in fucked up conditions and you do nothing about it. You have your heart buried in some Marxist interpretation of the Noble Savage. I can name hundreds of white American children that could use a paltry 1% of the seemingly unlimited Federal intervention and popular focus that has been consistently awarded to African Americans since the mid-1860s.
150 years of Executive orders on behalf of your pet demographic and countless billions dumped into Africa via the IMF. Keep twisting the predictable teat of White Guilt, and one day, all that you will be able to draw is blood, hatred, and skeptisicm to your knee-jerk altruism.
You seem so keen on recalling history in the name of your ideology, can you tell me how many impoverished white children you helped throughout your life? Or did you blow them off because they were of a “lesser social justice” priority?
August 19th, 2009 at 8:22 pm
“CultState.com,” I won’t get into a debate with you here.
I do want to correct one major mis-impression, however: federal government aid since the 1860s has been overwhelmingly and disproportionately in favor of white citizens, not black.
You seem to think that blacks have been given unfair advantages by federal government programs. In fact, however, massive federal government programs in the early and mid-20th century largely built the white middle class, with aid for jobs, housing, and education.
We like to forget, in this country, even our recent history and pretend that we’re starting fresh, on a level playing field. In fact, it’s nowhere near so simple as that.
August 19th, 2009 at 8:38 pm
I owe no debt to any black person, and I will pay nothing nor apologize to any black person for anything that happened to their ancestors. I support them through my taxes being used for welfare dollars – and that is more than they deserve. If a race of people allows themselves to be held in bondage and doesn’t do anything about it, don’t expect my sympathy.
August 19th, 2009 at 8:53 pm
Thank you for addressing me, James, because this has been a serious concern of mine. Growing up in the 90s, when African Americans practically sued their way into the Middle Class, (the inevitable manifestation of White Guilt) I couldn’t help but wonder why they managed to get so much focus from political powerhouses due of their history. A history that supposedly offset their chances at the American Dream.
Meanwhile, in the lower class white part of town, I couldn’t even get a stable pair of guardians to watch over me until I was 10. No child protection services. No great moral crusaders. No unlimited altruism, no Ivory Tower academics leaping over one another to assist me, and no blood-thirsty lawyers just waiting to sue anyone who looked at me wrong.
I am fully versed of the cultural viciousness that has befallen African Americans during their many hundreds of years in America, and as you say, I will not debate that or disagree with you. The historical research confirms your claim of African American issues: There have been 5 Constitutional Amendments, 44 Federal court decisions, 14 Executive Orders, and 8 Federal bureaus, 1 President, and 1 entire COUNTRY (Liberia) all created exclusively to combat the cultural problems exclusive to African American integration. Not to mention that out of the entire $24 billion in loans that the IMF hands out, 20% of it goes automatically to Africa.
I can’t even count the amount of airtime, public awareness, and educational institution reform that has been amended to make African American concerns a moral priority.
How much more? How many more resources are we supposed to put out there? Who determines when to stop? Who determines when the goal is achieved? How do you measure progress? What good is a first step when the past 150 years of “first steps” to amending race relations in America still isn’t stopping people from exploiting White Guilt for their own gains? Do you create tribunals to stop intentional exploitations of White Guilt? There are so many questions that heartstrings and pity will never allow you to ask.
Running into history books, flipping to random pages, and saying “Yep, more slavery here, too” is not constructive or even remotely relevant to make amends. The dirty secret of civilization throughout all ages is that there is always someone being trampled on to prop it up. We know this. You know this. I know this. Vast swaths of people know this. But why are we supposed to act on it with moral impetus? There are countless unresolved genocides throughout history. The Left crucified America as racists all throughout the 20th century while it gave Stalin and Mao free passes to butcher people. The Social Equality of the 60s and 70s turned a blind eye to Pol Pot being 30% of his country to death with clubs because they kept using money and they couldn’t adapt to life outside of the city. My own personal history is laden with watching loud-mouthed altruists shout for social justice as they passed me by like “Oh, he’s white, he’ll have a free pass eventually”
Whatever uniqueness that the African American experience has to teach us, I’m sorry, I’m just not buying it. The world has moved beyond them.
It’s not even a case of reverse racism or opening old wounds. You don’t even see your short-sightedness is just adding to more skepticism of altruism to the point that no one will stand up for anyone anywhere. Whatever neurochemical in our heads was supposed to feel empathy about other people was all burned up in the 90s.
August 19th, 2009 at 8:53 pm
Ms.Browne, Leveling All! of the playing fields would be a GREAT feat in itself to help repair some of the broken ropes that pulled most of our ancestors from Africa to America. What I haven’t seen yet from anyone is an easy way for any of us to find out where in Africa we all come from! I think if there was a way through DNA or another way to link people with there families back in Africa to give us at least an understanding of who we are that may help. Show the young people that some of them came from royalty and give them a sense of pride, they don’t know who they are! The 1st President Bush apologized to the Japanese-Americans for what this country did to them during WWII and PAID THEM! and he didn’t personally have anything to do with it either. I pray that I live long enough to see the day America comes together as 1 nation to heal it. Older white America doesn’t want to see things made even between the races because they think they worked VERY HARD to get what they have in life, But they don’t truly understand the concept of what HARD is. Hard is living 7 or 8 generations and not know who you are or where you came from. Hard is building a country with your blood/sweat and receiving pig guts to eat and whippings in return. Hard is seeing the women you love RAPED and you as a man can’t do anything about it except raise the child that master gave your wife. White America came here and the only chains they saw were holding the boats down not the people. What do you get when you chain an animal or man that was free since birth? A BROKEN SPIRIT! and now you can control both of them. Katrina I am pulling for you and I will do everything in my power to help. Good luck!
August 19th, 2009 at 9:34 pm
“CultState.com,” this really isn’t the place to cover this ground in detail. Please feel free to visit me on my blog, for instance, or come over the the forum if you want to discuss this material.
I’ll just point out that the facts don’t back up your arguments. For instance, blacks haven’t sued their way into the middle class, and the trials and tribulations of poor people of all races in this country don’t negate the fact that blacks face considerably more difficulty, on average, than whites do.
You are simply wrong when you suggest that black Americans have been given more than enough to overcome the racial disparities which have existed, with only modest changes, since slavery ended.
You keep talking about the “resources” which you believe have been expended, yet in the time period you’re discussing, whites have received the lion’s share of the resources handed out by our government, even adjusting for their greater numbers.
I would like to cover the historical ground, as well, to help you see why American slavery is different from the historical experiences of white American ancestors. Again, this isn’t really the place, but I would be happy to cover this ground in as much detail as you’d like in one of the locations I mentioned above.
August 19th, 2009 at 9:48 pm
We did not invent the abhorant practice of enslaving other humans. (The “magnificent” pyramids of Egypt and Central America – pre white europeans – were constructed by slave labor. Where is the outcry? We are fortunate to live in a more enlightened time and place, but slavery stillexists in this world today. Perhaps her efforts would be better spent addressing that problem. But that might require actual work and not just fanciful rumination of an effete snob.
August 19th, 2009 at 10:21 pm
Slavery existed in Africa, long before the Europeans arrived. Warring tribes benefited from making captured tribes slaves. The slaves were used as labourers,concubines or were traded for goods or services. America was built off the sweat, blood and tears of the slaves. Who benefitted were the whites. The blacks were viewed as unfit for the society they helped to create. The old adage that if you possess 1/16 of Black blood made you black even though one’s physical appearance might be so pale that they long to visit the sun. How many of blacks passed as whites, assimilating and creating a long lineage of “ignorant” blacks who appear white but are unaware of their blackness. I thank Ms.Brown for reawaking the sleeping giant, whom no ones seems to want to bother with as much as a feather. We are in the age of a black president, we need to get to the point of saying we have another American President, as slavery has so intertwined the lives of all Americans, we wouldn’t know where to begin to separate our many selves. It begins with self-reflection, do you owe anyone an apology? Have you treated someone unfairly because of the color of their skin? You know what, it wasn’t thier fault that they were born with it, just as it isn’t your fault that you were born with yours. Your skin just happened to be lighter. We have ways to go, but I too have hope that when we all as Americans have a quiet moment to think, that we do just that.
August 19th, 2009 at 10:21 pm
I am wondering if I should switch to a career in White Apology.
My family never owned slaves but I did accidently cut off a young black lady driving a Lexus in La Jolla last month.
What is the best and most effective method to sell out my culture, race and heritage in order to make a dollar?
I am in San Diego so would it make more sense to target Mexican decendants for my apologies instead? My neighborhood has more white, hispanic and asian families living close by but I know where some black families are located.
Good luck with the sell out!
August 19th, 2009 at 10:43 pm
First of all, if you are born here in the US, you are an AMERICAN! The term African American seems to be used to show the color of ones skin and not their born nationality. Do you go around stating you are a Irish American? I don’t, because I am AMERICAN! I personally do not feel we, Americans, the US Government or anyone else for that matter owe the black Americans of today an apology for slavery! Do you know any slaves? I don’t. I know we Americans, and our government do not owe an apology. You want to harp about injustices, look to the Natives of America, you know, the Indians? They are still on reservations, the Government hasn’t treated them right, and still don’t even today. You know, there have been a lot of unjust acts done throughout the course of human history. There is nothing wrong with remembering. We remember the Holocaust. To keep things stirred up isn’t a positive step in the correct direction. Because of articles, and opinions like yours, this subject stays alive in a unproductive manner and it should not even be relative today. Our Commander and Chief, the President, claims to be black. What is left to prove? He was voted in office, and black America only makes up 13% of the population. Obviously the majority of Americans voted him into office. Doesn’t seem to me that slavery or racism is relevant today, so why would an apology for slavery be necessary?
There is a organization, a fund, a station, a channel, a store, and the list goes on of things especially for black Americans. I do not see any special organizations, college funds, pageants, channels, and whatever else were only white Americans are allowed to boast the fact that it is for “white Americans”. Why is it black comedians can pick white Americans apart as part of their dialog getting away with pretty much anything, and it is funny! Michael Anthony Richards used language just like that of what the majority of black comedians use, in a comedy club because he was being heckled. He had to publicly apologize over and over.
So for whatever reason that makes you feel you are an authority, (and the thought of why anyone would even publish this story you wrote….I guess anyone can do it. Perhaps my son’s next book report on black History month will do?) and apparently someone will publish your articles, write one that is more productive and will actually help someone that needs more than an apology in the hear and now.
August 20th, 2009 at 11:45 am
I was so happy to read the article yesterday on CNN. Finally a perspective that’s honest and most of all educated! The missing link why most white Americans cannot relate has to do with miseducation and just no exposure to other views and perspectives, not in school and certainly not in everyday living. As an immigrant from the Caribbean that had its own brutal slavery practices – I saw America from a different perspective and after arriving here for the first time in 1987 – it was not what I had read about or seen on TV but a rather very racist environment – it took some adjusting to – as people automatically assumed I was not college educated, or neither my parents for that matter. You are judged based on the color of your skin. Period.
I happen to come from a mixed family – where my mother’s family because of the color of their skin had privileges more so than my father’s side. I know as a fact if my great grandparents on my father’s side were given the same opportunities that my mother’s side was given – I would have had a better jump start in life. I do believe that America however affords you the opportunity TODAY to be anything you want to be. I am not blind and deaf however and know that I have to work twice as hard to accomplish what most white Americans see as a given.
I always wonder why my being on equal ground with white America makes them feel that their freedom is being taken away. How can a history of slavery for over 300 years not affect the people experiencing it? That’s more than 15 generations. I am also tired of hearing about how Africa had slavery – if you study African history you will also realize that it was not as brutal as European and American slavery – most times you were enslaved after being captured during war and you could work to buy your freedom. Other types of slavery meant you owed a debt – the person you owed would have you work for them until the debt was paid off and you would return to society. It did not mean because my great-great grandfather was a slave then I would be a slave. How brutal is that.
People seem more partial to be empathetic to the holocaust – I really believe because of the positive movies and books around those six years.
History is history. Period! Why should we not talk about it. There really should be an apology and all those businesses especially banks that profited from slavery for over 300 years really owe African Americans something! Come on I am a business owner and my biggest expense is the cost of labor – can you image where I would be today if I could have my employees working for me for free for the next three hundred years! Wow! I could really leave a mark on this world!
How would you feel knowing that your dear grandparents you loved were used – raped, beaten and not given any pay – how would you feel then?
Someone else mentioned Native Americans – you are right they were mistreated as well – they weren’t enslaved though! In fact some of them even had their own slaves. Talking about one set of people doesn’t mean you are taking away the rights of another. There are so many issues that still need to be discussed. Katrina Browne keep up the excellent work you have done. My husband just purchased the documentary and I can’t wait to see it and I am sure I’ll comment again.
August 20th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
Your reflex to be an Artful Dodger is a tale-tell sign that you are out on a political agenda, not a mission of altruism.
“There have been 5 Constitutional Amendments, 44 Federal court decisions, 14 Executive Orders, and 8 Federal bureaus, 1 President, and 1 entire COUNTRY (Liberia) all created exclusively to combat the cultural problems exclusive to African American integration. Not to mention that out of the entire $24 billion in loans that the IMF hands out, 20% of it goes automatically to Africa.”
How many “first steps” are you going to demand we take for something none of us have done?
I’ll be sure to give you all of the statistics, economic studies, and federal reports for you to spin away as “conjecture” in private.
We can start with these two:
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landmark_African-American_legislation
- http://www.africaaction.org/resources/issues/wbimf.php
August 20th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Sophie,
I know damn well how it feels to have been raped and not given justice.
How do you feel when other people who don’t look like you get all the attention for something their ancestors go through while you sit there on the sidelines, trying to convince yourself your traumatic experiences aren’t as bad as “those poor people”?
Go save members in your own family, communities, and neighborhoods before you take on the the self-aggrandizing title of “World Citizen”.
August 20th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Additionally, proof of African Americans suing their way into the Middle Class in the 90s:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/crcusdc06.pdf
“On average, plaintiffs won a third of civil rights cases from 1990 to 2006; median damage awards ranged from $114,000 to $154,500″
I’m not asking you to acknowledge me, my summation, or the lists, facts, and numbers I bring to the table. You never will and I know this. You clearly have a vested interest in the opposite of everything I have said. I am no fool.
I come issuing a warning of what happens when you ignore people who see through your intentional manipulation of the altruistic veil: You desire to spread harmony will only backfire as people grow more callous to your primitive attempts at rabble-rousing.
August 20th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
CultState, you’ve twice now referred to the many federal programs since 1865 which involve race in one way or another.
Yet you haven’t acknowledged that far more federal money during that period has been restricted to white citizens than to black, nor the fact that this isn’t a matter of “cultural problems” related to “integration.” This is about concrete, material harm done to American families during slavery, and during the Jim Crow century which followed. Whether or not anything can, or should, be done about it, the money has never been spent to undo that harm, as the numbers clearly show. Finally, you include aid sent to foreigners on other continents, which has no more to do with your argument than NASA’s budget does.
I sympathize when you suggest that black Americans shouldn’t “get all the attention,” and that other people have had traumatic experiences as well. This shouldn’t be about weighing oppression or misfortune, but neither should Sophie and those like her be taken to task for trying to make a difference in the world.
Finally, you cite the example of U.S. citizens winning compensation for specific, recent wrongs which they have proven in court. This is not a case of anyone “suing their way into the middle class.” This is compensation for specific, demonstrated harm for which we as a society have chosen to make remedies available.
August 20th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
I have spent many years going back and forth to Africa to work. I observed a black “American” blessing his food before eating and the only words uttered were ‘Thank you God’. After several days of this i asked him what he was thankful for. He said ’slavery’. Being surprised I asked him why and his answer was very short. ‘If it weren’t dor slavery I would have to live in this God forsaken country’. I think if more blacks would go back to Africa and see what they would be living in there they would be more thankful for what they have here.
August 20th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
Your instinct to be an Artful Dodger reveals more than you would like to broadcast.
Money from Federal sources have been spent for over 150 years to integrate African Americans. They have the form of:
- 5 Constitutional Amendments
- 44 Federal court decisions
- 14 Executive Orders
- 8 Federal bureaus
- 1 President
- 1 entire COUNTRY (Liberia)
Your insistence on ignoring this continue to inspire its repetition. “Head in Sand” argument techniques won’t work with me. If you are disagreeing with these manifestations by saying that they were of no actual consequence, then I am in agreement with you on that conclusion. I’d even take it a step further and say such amends are proof that no amends can be made, ergo, the entire provocation of White apologism should be tossed into the dust bin of history as nothing more than an Academic exercise gone horribly wrong.
As per your comment of including aid sent to foreigners on other continents… “other continents”? Like there are five hundred million possible “other continents” that have relation to this particular argument? Here, let me help you. The name of the continent happens to be “Africa”, and 20% of the IMF’s funds goes automatically there. Want to guess why? Here’s another helpful tip: It might have something to do with your film.
As per trying to make a difference in the world, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Consider starting locally, like helping that kid across the street, or that family member that lives in a really terrible situation. Maybe a friend? How about that kid in school that is quiet all the time and shows up with bruises for no reason? Skipping your immediate environs and moving instinctively to the world stage will only render your altruism as manufactured, misguided, and as political opportunism.
From 1990 to 2006, if you were Black and you had a Civil Rights gripe, 33% of the time, you would be awarded an average of $100,000. The only evidence you needed was your skin color. That’s called “extortion” in any other context and it is made possible by “first steppers” like you. I can copy and paste this entire PDF into the comment box here if you continue to insist on refusing to read it:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/crcusdc06.pdf
It is quite long and would take up a a substantial part of this page.
Deflection, denial, and refusal to research every single “first step” that has been taken to placate African American woes is not an accurate method of argument in a world where massive, public government documents detailing all expenditures for centuries can be made immediately available in a single mouse click.
Your only retort is “White people had it better.”, which has nothing to do with the argument I’m making: African Americans have already received and CONTINUE to receive countless financial and material manifestations of apologism, a claim you deny with predictable fervor.
August 20th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
So now that you’ve realized your family was one of the worst involved the slave trade, you feel that the entire country should have empathy for the people they mistreated? In case you haven’t realized, this is the United States of America. We are made up of just about every race/ethnic group/color/sociologic background that has ever existed….including African-American. There are direct descendants of former slaves in very highly ranked and respected offices throughout this incredible country. There are many direct descendents of Irish immigrants who have worked their way up to establish middle class roots. You speak of these poor, predominatly African-American neighborhoods in the North. What about the poor, predominatly White neighborhoods of the South? Yes slavery was wrong. Yes there are unimaginable tales of torture and suffering. I fully empathize with the former slaves and their children. However, not a soul alive on Earth today has ever witnessed slavery. This Country, and our government, are comprised of a very dynamic mixture of people and ideals. That is the beauty of it. You are asking people to feel remorse and apologize for things that they did not do. The children of murderers are not asked to apologize. The children of wall street criminals are not asked to apologize. Why not just be content that the government issued an official apology? Why push your feelings of self-hatred onto the rest of us for things that your family did?
August 20th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
CultState, this is the third time you have posted some of this material. You say that it has been ignored, yet my response is above. I’ve pointed out that these federal laws and programs have not undone the harm caused by slavery and discrimination. I’m not sure what else I can say on that score, unless you want to offer a more specific response.
To give you a concrete example, Professor Charles Ogletree points out in our documentary that after slavery, black Americans collectively had only about 1% of the wealth of this nation, despite being a much larger share of the population. Today, black Americans still have about 1% of the wealth of this country. If you’re implying that federal government programs have provided enough money to eliminate racial inequality, you’re simply mistaken. If you’re suggesting that these programs have somehow done enough, then you might try saying what you believe is enough. If you really mean to say that “making amends” isn’t possible, well, that’s clearly not true. Whether making amends is a good idea is another issue, but I don’t see you making an argument about that.
The name of the continent happens to be “Africa”, and 20% of the IMF’s funds goes automatically there. Want to guess why?
Because Africa is an impoverished continent? Africa doesn’t receive foreign aid disproportionate to its need, or to the aid given to other poor regions of the world.
I still don’t see how our aid to Africa is related to whether or not our own citizens have been made whole. Or is the connection merely the color of their skin?
Skipping your immediate environs and moving instinctively to the world stage will only render your altruism as manufactured, misguided, and as political opportunism.
With all due respect, you’re the one jumping to the world stage with your talk about the proper distribution of foreign aid.
Those here are focused on helping their neighbors and fellow citizens to achieve equal opportunity, despite the legacy of our nation’s history of slavery and racial discrimination.
From 1990 to 2006, if you were Black and you had a Civil Rights gripe, 33% of the time, you would be awarded an average of $100,000.
No. If you were black and could prove that you had been harmed by a violation of civil rights law–in other words, that you were harmed by racial discrimination–to the satisfaction of a largely white federal jury, you were entitled to an award commensurate with the harm you had suffered.
If you would read the report you’re linking to, you would see that this isn’t about merely having the right skin color.
African Americans have already received and CONTINUE to receive countless financial and material manifestations of apologism, a claim you deny with predictable fervor.
It’s interesting that you’re simply saying that blacks have received various measures of support, without denying that these measures might be mere tokens, or at the very least woefully inadequate.
It is certainly true that many black Americans, like many other citizens, have received assistance based in part on their racial identity.
However, the plain fact is that in the last century and a half, white Americans have received far more aid restricted to white people than blacks have received.
The plain fact is that the aid received by blacks has been a drop in the bucket compared to the racial inequality resulting from this nation’s history.
Can you think of any programs which have provided black citizens with assistance comparable to what whites received from the government in prior generations?
August 20th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
And as far as affirmative action goes, what better way to tell a group of people that you are not equal? “We do not feel that you are equal on your own merit, so we are going to give you this opportunity even though there are more qualified individuals who have applied.” If people want equality, then they should prove that they have the desire and ability to perform at the same levels that the rest of the world. This is not a matter of race, its a matter of pride, self-respect, and sheer will to prove one’s ability. Real equality does not provide assistance to anyone, of any race.
August 20th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
katrina…thank you for your insightful investigation. it doesn’t amaze me, that most of the antagonists voicing their negative opinions here, simply do not get it.
our country doesn’t need citizenry like that. they sound exactly like the frustrated racists i read on other forums who spew the worse vitriol.
August 20th, 2009 at 8:00 pm
Seriously… more whiney touchey feely BS from the weak, apologist movement. Your statistics show no sourcing and are therefore questionable. Where exactly are you obtaining wealth information from 400 years ago again? Information that was not actually collected? I do find it amusing that you equate serious issues with such out of date topics and spurious statistic spouting.
Obviously, the author does not live in an urban area nor have they seen what kind of horrid things occur in them. With a president of mixed racial heritage, please stop glossing that over people, more than displays that the author’s accusations are as baseless as the statistics used to support the nonsense. Nice try, please peddle your pity party elsewhere
August 20th, 2009 at 8:23 pm
The bulk of Americans, including white or European derived Americans have family histories that have nothing to do with owning or trading slaves. Its time to stop putting this on all of America’s backs. Most other Americans have families who were themselves serfs (in Russia and Ukraine till 1900) or discriminated against in Europe due to religion (Jews, Puritans, Hugoenots), and were too busy themselves trying to get Equal Rights.
Also Slavery in USA was a leftover from the European Colonial power, and almost immediately when the USA became independent many of the US States passed laws against it, and the Federal Government also passed laws clamping down on it, which is what led to the Civil War.
Its long time for the bulk of the American People to stop feeling any guilt over Slavery which our ancestors did not do. People like Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter who have SLAVE-OWNERS in their family trees should be guilty but not most rest of us.
August 20th, 2009 at 9:01 pm
There are African Americans, Mexican Americans,
Asian Americans, Arab
Americans, etc.
And then there are just Americans. You pass me on the
street and sneer in my direction. You call me ‘White boy,’
‘Cracker,’ ‘Honkey,’ ‘Whitey,’ ‘Caveman’… and that’s OK.
But when I call you, Nigger, Kike, Towel head,
Sand-nigger, Camel Jockey, Beaner, Gook, or Chink .. You call me a racist.
You say that whites commit a lot of violence against
you… so why are the ghettos the most dangerous places to live?
You have the United Negro College Fund. You
have Martin Luther King Day.
You have Black History Month. You have Cesar Chavez Day.
You have Yom Hashoah. You have Ma’uled Al-Nabi.
You have the NAACP. You have BET… If we had WET (White
Entertainment Television), we’d be racists. If we had a White Pride
Day, you would call us racists.
If we had White History Month, we’d be racists.
If we had any organization for only whites to
‘advance’ OUR, lives we’d be racists.
We have a Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, a Black Chamber of Commerce, and
then we just have the plain Chamber of Commerce. Wonder
who pays for that??
A white woman could not be in the Miss Black American
pageant but any color can be in the Miss America pageant.
If we had a college fund that only gave white students
scholarships …You know we’d be racists..
There are over 60 openly proclaimed Black Colleges in the
US.Yet if there were ‘White colleges’ That would be a
racist college.
In the Million Man March, you believed that you were
marching for your race and rights. If we marched for our race and rights, you
would call us racists.
You are proud to be black, brown, yellow and orange, and you’re not afraid
to announce it. But when we announce our white pride, you
call us racists.
You rob us, carjack us, and shoot at us. But, when a white
police officer shoots a black gang member or beats up a black drug dealer
running from the law and posing a threat to
society, you call him a racist. I am proud… But you call me a racist.
Why is it that only whites can be racists??
August 20th, 2009 at 9:20 pm
Finally, a straight answer. Albeit, flavored with a hint of self-righteous snide, but I’ll take that over the instinct to deflect. I am enjoying this debate, as it has not devolved into an ad hominem slugfest yet.
If you’re implying that federal government programs have provided enough money to eliminate racial inequality, you’re simply mistaken. and
Which leads me back to my initial question that you so gleefully ignored: How much more is needed? How many more resources are we supposed to put out there? Who determines when to stop? Who determines when the goal is achieved? How do you measure progress? What good is your first step when the past 150 years of “first steps” to amending race relations in America clearly isn’t adequate to your standards? Just throw more cash that the problem? Subject the Middle Class to yet another 45 years of pro-indigenous propaganda? Imprison people if they disagree with you? Make hate crime legislation so strict you’d confuse it with the Red Scare? You are highlighting a historical event with emotional, ideological blinders requiring you willfully ignore much more tragic events in history, demanding empirical material results, ignoring every single empirical material result applied thus far, and then people like Richard run in and labeling everyone that doesn’t want to pay even more as “racists.”
You are demanding empirical remedies to a situation where consistent empirical remedies have already been applied! Your conclusion is that no matter what the Federal government, charities, religious organizations, the IMF, the World Bank, FDIs, and the vast bulk of the white Middle class has paid in tribute, (be it conned, taxed, gifted, sued, or stolen) the conclusion of “first steppers” throughout history is predictably the same: it is never enough. At what point are we supposed to not confuse your request for an empirical remedy with blatant greed, especially in the face of the heavily-documented, well-funded, long-term massive global support that has already been issued to those of African origin? Have you concluded that, perhaps, empirical material remedies aren’t the solution and maybe the mind state to flip through a history book and shout injustice might be a mental disorder? The APA has criminalized far less in recent history.
I have to ask this again, because I got a politically expedient response out of you: Are you selecting which neighbors to help because a history book said their grandparents had a rough time? How many white kids from the poor section of town with clearly fucked up lives have you helped? Or are they of “lower social justice priority” who will probably have an easier life because they are white? Your argument of the latter seems to insist that white children clearly have this massive advantage just waiting to be applied to them, so no matter how tough of a time they have, it’s negligible and unimportant.
The suggestion that White apologism as it has manifested thus far is a “mere token” is a spit in the face of the same generous people who have donated (or have been forced via taxation) their lives, money, time, and resources to help this demographic. It shows that this demographic has become addicted to the material assistance they’ve gotten so far, and have used it to establish the hubris of entitlement.
As per the Civil Rights Witchhunt of the 90s, between 1990 and 2006, the reported median of $317,699,270.09 was exploited out of business owners and the government and given to African Americans who complained about “emotional pain, suffering, inconvenience, mental anguish, future monetary losses, as well as loss of enjoyment of life” caused by employment “discrimination”. That’s almost three times the amount the Marshall Plan received.
The amount of money spent during the Marshall Plan ($115 billion total in 4 years [$28 billion a year]) is dwarfed by the amount of money foreign aid has been given to Africa from Western nations. ($1 TRILLION TOTAL OVER 50 YEARS [$20 billion a year]) Let that number sink it before you even begin an argument about reparations.
$1 trillion.
Let me guess, that price tag has nothing to do with anything, right? It’s just a random, isolated event, African aid and the slave trade are completely separate issues entirely, not even remotely related to one another in the slightest. You’d have to be a magician to pair the two together, right?
As per Richard, playing the Race Card when I have been civil and provided statistic after statistic, report after report, in the face of blanket denial, deflection, and Artful Dodging is the exact reaction I’d expect from those who subscribe to the Cult of White Guilt. Good job on ensuring that whatever empathy passerbys of this argument have to offer is calloused by the infallible, end-all-be-all scarlet Race Card you’ve grown so complacently addicted to using.
August 20th, 2009 at 9:43 pm
Edits:
“That’s almost three times the amount the Marshall Plan received.” should read “$317 million dollar direct injection into their consumer habits. The only prerequisites were a “sad tale” and black skin.”
“If you’re implying that federal government programs have provided enough money to eliminate racial inequality, you’re simply mistaken. and” should be “You said ‘If you’re implying that federal government programs have provided enough money to eliminate racial inequality, you’re simply mistaken.’”
August 20th, 2009 at 10:12 pm
Instead of obsessing about the past which you can do nothing about for the people who lived it, why not try to do something about slavery that exists today? There are child slaves in Haiti that are suffering abuse and neglect; there is still slavery in Africa and many parts of the Near East. Instead of helping real people you are living in a world of ghosts and helping no one.
August 21st, 2009 at 4:22 am
Just curious Katrina, are you responsible for that devasting hurricane of 2005?
After all, you do have the same name so you must be partly responsible. Will you wallow in despair because of that as well?
August 21st, 2009 at 5:58 am
Katrina you are brave and a credit and much needed balance to your family and your race! keep your head high and remember this did not happen over night and you will not make everyone who diagrees with you change over night and some not ever. But certain things can never be erased or covered up adequately. For instance and I will leave everyone to think about this to let you know how much cleaning up America still has to do. Afican Americans for all intended purposes are still not constitutionally fully considered whole human beings! The 3/5 comprimise has still not been irradicated from the constitution! It should be done and never ever have to be revisited again!
August 21st, 2009 at 6:32 am
Your essay was nothing short of courageous; but after reading just a few of the responses its more than clear that we have a long way to go. i doubt if this issue will ever find closure…. not until the day each of us stand before God to give an account of our lives, and the immaginations of our hearts… that awful day when all secrets are uncovered.
August 21st, 2009 at 6:56 am
I am a veteran in a family of veterans. We have shed more than our share of blood, sweat and tears for this nation. You will have to pardon me if I don’t feel the need to apologize for the accident of my birth.
August 21st, 2009 at 8:48 am
Sean, I’m sorry if we gave you the impression that you shouldn’t be proud of your family and your heritage, and of your military service. That was never our intention, and we would be offended by someone who suggested that, too.
This may be partly the result of confusion over the phrase, “the accident of birth.” Several people seem to have mistaken these words as an apology for being born white.
These words mean that who we are by birth–our race, our nationality, our social or economic class–are the result of random chance. Katrina could easily have been born black, or American Indian. The word “accident” doesn’t mean that there’s anything bad about being born white, but simply that we have no control over the facts of our birth.
August 21st, 2009 at 9:12 am
Your statistics show no sourcing and are therefore questionable. Where exactly are you obtaining wealth information from 400 years ago again? Information that was not actually collected?
Joe, our statistics and other historical information are backed up in every case with extensive primary sources or unimpeachable secondary sources, and we’re happy to share the details with anyone who’s interested.
We haven’t referred to data on wealth from four centuries ago, but you’d be surprised at just what records exist from back then.
If I had to guess, I suspect you’re referring to the 1% wealth statistic from 1865. You might be interested to know that the U.S. government, for starters, actually has extensive records from that period, from the U.S. Census, from the War Department and veteran’s benefits, among other sources.
In that case, however, that statistic came from Professor Charles Ogletree, as I mentioned. He’s a faculty member at the Harvard Law School, and I believe that statistic comes from an analysis published in a professional journal of economics. I could find the reference if you’d like.
August 21st, 2009 at 9:25 am
The bulk of Americans, including white or European derived Americans have family histories that have nothing to do with owning or trading slaves.
Actually, Andrew, a majority of Americans are descended from people who were involved with the economics of owning or trading slaves.
It’s true that prior to 1865, slaves were owned by a minority of Americans. However, slave-owning was quite common among middle-class Americans for a long time, especially in the northern states. In New England, for example, one in four households had at least one slave at the height of slavery.
More importantly, though, slavery dominated the American economy, in both north and south, from colonial days until abolition in 1865. Vast numbers of citizens were engaged in economic activity directly connected to slavery, whether that meant supplying slaving voyages, growing food for slave plantations in the American South or the West Indies, engaging in the cotton trade or working in the cotton textile industry, which was our leading industry and which was dependent upon slavery. And virtually all, if not all, citizens prior to 1865 benefited financially from slavery as consumers.
Most other Americans have families who were themselves serfs (in Russia and Ukraine till 1900)
First, we shouldn’t casually equate serfdom with chattel slavery. These were two very different institutions, with very different effects on those involved.
Second, when those Russian and Ukrainian families immigrated to the U.S., they arrived to find plentiful jobs because of slavery. This was true even after slavery ended, since slavery had made possible the industrial revolution in this country. This is what allowed poor immigrants to work hard and get ahead.
Those white immigrants, moreover, walked off the boats to face opportunities which American families descended from slaves did not have. For a century after the end of slavery, Jim Crow laws in all states provided for official racial discrimination, and public and private discrimination cost black families dearly. Meanwhile, in that same century, the federal government spent vast sums of money to lift white families into the middle class with aid programs for jobs, education, home ownership, and small businesses.
So, while many families have struggled over the generations, they have not necessarily faced the same obstacles, and many have faced fewer challenges for many generations now.
Slavery in USA was a leftover from the European Colonial power, and almost immediately when the USA became independent many of the US States passed laws against it
That’s not true, Andrew. Only the northern states even considered passing laws against slavery, and almost all of them delayed for generations before abolishing slavery.
The U.S. gained independence in the 1780s, and there were still slaves in the North, legally, in the 1840s.
the Federal Government also passed laws clamping down on it, which is what led to the Civil War
The federal government did nothing to clamp down on slavery in any state, and in fact passed draconian laws supporting slavery. The Fugitive Slave Act comes to mind.
The only notable way in which the federal government opposed slavery prior to the Civil War was by extending slavery to only half of the new states admitted to the Union.
August 21st, 2009 at 10:13 am
CultState,
Which leads me back to my initial question that you so gleefully ignored: How much more is needed? How many more resources are we supposed to put out there?
To achieve what? You speak of solving “cultural problems” and achieving “integration” with these resources. What are those cultural problems? What do you mean by “integration”? I wasn’t aware these were even problems we’re trying to solve.
If you’re referring, in an oblique way, to achieving racial equality, then I’ve already given you my answer, and you’ve quoted it back without comment: the racial gap in economic status that derives from our nation’s history of slavery and racial discrimination is very large, and the nation hasn’t spent the kind of money that would be necessary to overcome it (if that’s your goal).
You cite a tremendous variety of federal law, programs, and actions. For instance, you seem to be citing the constitutional amendment which outlawed slavery. You seem to be referring to our current president. You even refer to our foreign aid to other countries. What’s the connection? What common aim to you think is served by outlawing slavery, electing a particular Democratic president, and helping foreigners abroad?
You are highlighting a historical event with emotional, ideological blinders requiring you willfully ignore much more tragic events in history, demanding empirical material results, ignoring every single empirical material result applied thus far
What historical events, more tragic than chattel slavery, are we ignoring? What empirical results are we ignoring?
On the latter point, are you under the impression that the U.S. has spent vast sums of money to close the racial gap? I’m not arguing that we should, but it simply hasn’t happened. Efforts have been made, but they’ve been much more modest.
Then again, you seem to be under the impression that international institutions such as the IMF and the World Bank are somehow involved. Do you believe that they provide funding for anti-racist programs in the U.S.? Or are you somehow arguing that efforts to aid developing nations are related to equality in this country?
How many white kids from the poor section of town with clearly fucked up lives have you helped? Or are they of “lower social justice priority” who will probably have an easier life because they are white?
I think it would be abhorrent to prioritize the needs of one child over another, simply because of their race or because of the suffering of their ancestors.
What we’re talking about here, however, is different. On average, as you know, children in this country who are born black are significantly less well-off and face substantial obstacles because of racial discrimination, past and present.
This doesn’t mean that we fail to treat children as individuals, or that we ignore the plight of poor white children (to use your example).
It does mean that an individual-by-individual approach, without more, will miss important patterns in our social ills, as well as the causes which can help to inform our search for solutions.
The suggestion that White apologism as it has manifested thus far is a “mere token” is a spit in the face
No one is criticizing the private charity, or public tax dollars, which have come before.
I’m simply responding to your suggestion that enough has been done by saying that, whatever we should do, I can’t see the basis for your conclusion that it’s “enough.”
If you are referring to the race-based socioeconomic gap in this nation, then the gap is simply far larger than what has been spent to address it. This is like saying that there’s a bridge needing a $1 million repair. We don’t have to spend the money to repair it, we don’t even have to believe that repairing the bridge is a good idea. But we can’t spend $10,000 towards repairs, and then say that was enough and wonder why the bridge isn’t fixed.
The amount of money spent during the Marshall Plan ($115 billion total in 4 years [$28 billion a year]) is dwarfed by the amount of money foreign aid has been given to Africa from Western nations. ($1 TRILLION TOTAL OVER 50 YEARS [$20 billion a year]) Let that number sink it before you even begin an argument about reparations.
Again, you’re confusing racial justice in this country with aiding foreign nations. The two issues are not connected in any way–unless you’re suggesting that the Marshall Plan should be seen as aid to Europe as reparations for wrongs done to the descendants of Europeans who settled in this country. That wouldn’t make any sense, would it?
African aid and the slave trade are completely separate issues entirely, not even remotely related to one another in the slightest.
If there’s a connection, then yes, I’m missing it. We give similar aid to Asian and Latin American countries. It isn’t as if the history of the slave trade has lead us to give more aid to Africa than we otherwise would.
August 21st, 2009 at 12:07 pm
Plain and simple, “Equality” means the absense of special treatment. If people, and by people I mean all races and colors and nationalities, want equal treatment, then STOP thinking that someone owes you something just because of who you are. YOU go get what you want. If you think you deserve special treatment for who you are, then perhaps you belong in another country, one that was not created for the equality of all men and women. Anyone in this country who feels that they are better than anyone else, or deserve more than anyone is not truly American. WE are that shining light on a hill that the rest of the World strives to become. They come here by the droves because they are free to do as they please. But the very instant they decide that what they believe is the “right” way, and that those of us who are already here should abide by their rules, or follow their beliefs, that is the very instant they become non-American. We do not push our faith or beliefs or ideals onto other nations or cultures. The same goes for slavery. It is something that a group of people centuries ago grew to accept as a way of life. They realized in the years to follow that it is not right, and they no longer partake in it. Slavery is over and done in America. It will never return. So how about we look forward and try to improve our current F-d up situation instead of trying to find a time machine to go back and abolish slavery 300 years ago.
August 21st, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Plain and simple, “Equality” means the absense of special treatment.
Actually, “equality” has several meanings. Do you want to see equality of outcomes? Equality of opportunity? Or equality of treatment?
You’re talking about treating everyone in the same way, without regard to race. In one way or another, we all want that: any differences in how people are treated should be based on factors other than race.
Meanwhile, you’re ignoring the fact that if we do nothing about our problems of race, then we will not have equality of opportunity. Why? Because our black citizens do still face discrimination, and there are also significant gaps in education, housing, and jobs as a result of past discrimination.
This is what makes the legacy of slavery and discrimination a subtle and difficult problem to address, and one in which our principles are not easy to reconcile.
Anyone in this country who feels that they are better than anyone else, or deserve more than anyone is not truly American.
No one is making claims like this, at least not here. What makes you feel that the issues addressed here amount to such claims?
They come here by the droves because they are free to do as they please. But the very instant they decide that what they believe is the “right” way, and that those of us who are already here should abide by their rules, or follow their beliefs, that is the very instant they become non-American.
We’re talking here about the legacy of slavery and racism for black Americans. This has nothing to do with your belief that non-Americans are immigrating here and trying to dictate the rules of the game.
August 21st, 2009 at 1:26 pm
So many questions aimed to deflect, Mr. Artful Dodger… one wonders where the substance is.
I don’t “seem” to be citing anything. I am actually citing it. I use links. I use text. I provide a mountainous of such case actually existing. I am assuming that we both understand the same language and am assuming you are comprehending what is being spoken to on an emotionless, text-based medium. Would you like to deflect that this argument “seems” to be a metaphysical extension of Kantian thought experiments as well? Perhaps a good old fashion deflection of what is “is”?
You continue to ignore the fact that an estimated $300 million dollars have been transferred via class lines to African Americans by a consistent exploitation of the Civil Rights Act of 1991. You continue to ignore the 8 Federal Bureaus (Bureau of Refugees, Freedmen and Abandoned Lands, Fair Employment Practice Committee, President’s Committee on Civil Rights, Civil Rights Commission, Civil Rights Division in the Department of Justice, Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, Head Start, National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders) designed to promote civil rights fro African Americans. You ignore the fact that Liberia was annexed, funded, and established by America on behalf of slaves who desired to return to Africa. You ignore that the West continues to dump tremendous amounts of money ($1 trillion) into Africa as a result of the White apology for colonialism. You continue to ignore the 5 amendments to the Constitution. (There are only 27) In addition to ignoring them, any attempt to acknowledge such contributions are dismissed as “Not enough” or “Drops of water”
What is the common aim of the evidence I’ve provided?! It’s the same one you’ve been tastelessly dodging since this argument even began: When faced with the absolute proof of how much White apologism has already offered on behalf of historical concerns, the recipients of such apologism consistently cite that it is never enough. The question, James, is how am I supposed to not confuse your argument to demand more with blatant greed?
Your socioeconomic gap can be traced to more factors than racism. 70% of black children are born to single mothers. The dropout rate amongst blacks and Hispanics is now at 50%. The average black student with a high school diploma is reading and doing math at an eighth-grade level. How can you cite racism when Africans and Caribbean come to this country and significantly outperform their African American counterparts? Again, you cite the horrors of slavery as the cause of your socioeconomic gap, I’m citing the appeal of revising historical interpretation along Marxist lines as real source. Enslaving the body isn’t nearly as damaging as enslaving the mind.
http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/0/1/8/6/6/p18666_index.html
“The essay demonstrates that contemporary wealth and inequality literature tends to focus either on the asset development of African Americans when compared to whites or compare African Americans’ asset building activities to Asian American immigrants while failing to discuss the diversity of asset accumulation experiences of other black ethnic, immigrant groups. The essay argues that the literature dichotomies the asset accumulation experiences between African Americans, whites, and immigrant groups and in the process perpetuates dynamics of racial inequalities.”
Put down your precious Red Book, because your understanding of socioeconomics is based on a perspective that intentionally dichotomies the issue.
August 21st, 2009 at 2:08 pm
I don’t “seem” to be citing anything. I am actually citing it.
You only “seem” to be citing the Thirteenth Amendment, because you don’t actually cite it. You’ve made reference to “Constitutional Amendments,” “Federal court decisions,” and so on, without actually citing any of them. This makes it very hard to know which ones you’re talking about, and forces me to guess and to say that I’m not sure which ones you mean.
I provide a mountainous of such case actually existing.
You say that there are 44 federal court decisions, for instance. You don’t say which ones you’re thinking about, and you don’t say anything about what those decisions say. You simply suggest that they somehow involve trying to solve problems of culture and integration.
You continue to ignore the fact that an estimated $300 million dollars have been transferred via class lines to African Americans by a consistent exploitation of the Civil Rights Act of 1991.
I’m not ignoring that. I’m responding every time you mention it. You just don’t like what I’m saying about it.
Again, that isn’t exploitation, and it isn’t about giving people money because of their race.
This is about implementing the laws of our country, and giving money to people who have proven that they are entitled to it, under the law, for specific harm which has been done to them by people discriminating against them on the basis of race.
You ignore the fact that Liberia was annexed, funded, and established by America on behalf of slaves who desired to return to Africa.
Liberia was established while we still practiced slavery in this country, and was established by white Americans who wanted to get rid of blacks.
If that is somehow relevant to our current struggles for racial justice, I’m not sure what the connection is.
You ignore that the West continues to dump tremendous amounts of money ($1 trillion) into Africa as a result of the White apology for colonialism.
I haven’t ignored this. I’ve asked you repeatedly what the relevance is.
Even if you believe that our levels of aid to Africa are high because of colonialism, what’s the connection to American slavery?
When faced with the absolute proof of how much White apologism has already offered on behalf of historical concerns, the recipients of such apologism consistently cite that it is never enough. The question, James, is how am I supposed to not confuse your argument to demand more with blatant greed?
Vague references to eight federal agencies, for instance, that have been established relating to slavery or civil rights over the course of more than a century do not constitute “absolute proof” that too much has been done to eradicate the effects of racial discrimination.
If you want to suggest that enough has already been done, I think you have two options:
(1) Try to show that racial inequality and racial discrimination have been wiped out, or
(2) Try to show that we’ve expended enough effort and resources that these problems ought to be gone and that, therefore, they are intractable.
You haven’t tried to argue the first option.
You seem to be arguing the second option, yet you refuse to discuss the fact that, for instance, the socioeconomic gap created by slavery and Jim Crow is far larger than what has been expended to reduce it.
Your socioeconomic gap can be traced to more factors than racism. 70% of black children are born to single mothers.
This is a good example of the kind of myth about race that I’ve been talking about here, and it’s why it’s so helpful to be specific.
The rise in single parenthood, among both white and black families, is a phenomenon of the 1960s and 1970s.
Yet the socioeconomic gap between white and black families has existed, with slight progress from year to year, since slavery ended in 1865.
Therefore, it is impossible for that gap to have been caused, even in part, by the fact that 54% (not 70%) of black children now live in single-parent households. For that gap to be relevant at all, you would have to argue that the racial gap suddenly narrowed, due to other, unknown reasons, and simultaneously increased for this reason, such that we find only small changes from year to year (and usually in a positive direction) as single motherhood became more common.
How can you cite racism when Africans and Caribbean come to this country and significantly outperform their African American counterparts?
I would expect exactly that result.
Those immigrants also report suffering from racial prejudice. They do not, of course, suffer from the effects of past racial discrimination, since they and their families were not in this country at the time.
If you aren’t clear why racial discrimination against a family in one generation is likely to impact subsequent generations, I can certainly elaborate.
I’m citing the appeal of revising historical interpretation along Marxist lines as real source.
And yet that appeal doesn’t create the figures for income, wealth, education, and so on which show clearly that this socioeconomic gap has existed consistently since slavery, and that we have made modest, but only partial, progress towards eliminating it.
You also provide this link:
http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/0/1/8/6/6/p18666_index.html
This unpublished paper, by a student at Northeastern University here in Boston, argues that black immigrants face racial prejudice, but less than blacks who are born here, because immigrants are seen differently by whites than native-born blacks are. It also argues that immigrants have opportunities that native-born blacks do not.
You seem to be focused on the paper’s point that lumping all blacks in this society together, without distinguishing immigrants and the native-born, is a n unhelpful categorization. I couldn’t agree more.
August 21st, 2009 at 2:18 pm
- Meanwhile, you’re ignoring the fact that if we do nothing about our problems of race, then we will not have equality of opportunity. Why? Because our black citizens do still face discrimination, and there are also significant gaps in education, housing, and jobs as a result of past discrimination.
So you think that giving aid to a particular race in order to help them is not discriminating against EVERY other race? How can anything, or anybody be considered equal if they are not treated and rewarded equally. Nobody here has doubted that slavery took place, nor are we trying to downplay the long-lasting effects that is has had on our country. However to tell me that I, along with other CURRENT citizens should feel sorry for the current black americans that are nearly 200 years removed from their slavery-bound ancestors, is ridiculous. I did not hold slaves, I am not sorry for that. You did not hold slaves, are you sorry for that? There is no person, NOBODY alive today that had anything whatsoever to do with slavery. There are no living persons that were slaves, nor are there any living slave holders/traders. No matter how sorry you feel for people who died hundreds of years ago, it will not undo what happened. However, if you are proactive about a situation that we can fix, (the significant gaps in education, housing, and jobs as a result of past discrimination) as you like to call them, then perhaps you would find an audience more apt to listen and help your “cause”. However, to languish in the past and try to wallow in pity will get you, the former slaves, myself, and everyone else nowhere. Look forward, help someone who can be helped. If you were talking about financial hardships in the black American community, but did not attempt to tie it to Slavery, you would be much, much better received by the general public. Slavery is done, over, finished, abolished, past, closed, whatever you want to call it. The future is where you should look for change, because I hate to break it to you, but the past is just that, the past. You can not, and will not ever change Slavery, sorry.
August 21st, 2009 at 2:35 pm
How can anything, or anybody be considered equal if they are not treated and rewarded equally.
That’s precisely the dilemma which I was referring to, Patriot.
If we treat people the same, but they have different starting points because of past racial discrimination, then they do not have equal opportunities.
In a society in which citizens of different races have vastly different starting points in life, based largely on our racial history, we can’t have equality of opportunity and equality of treatment. We must choose one or the other, or find a principled way to compromise between those ideals.
However to tell me that I, along with other CURRENT citizens should feel sorry for the current black americans that are nearly 200 years removed from their slavery-bound ancestors, is ridiculous.
You don’t have to feel sorry for anyone. But you shouldn’t try to deny that 143 years after slavery, the descendants of the slaves have not been given the chance to overcome the profound lack of resources their families were left with after slavery. Even if we thought that they could do so in about seven generations, there was another century of brutal Jim Crow laws, and corresponding private attitudes, which prevented them from catching up. Those conditions only started to ease in the 1960s and 1970s, well within the lifetimes of many people alive today.
However, if you are proactive about a situation that we can fix, (the significant gaps in education, housing, and jobs as a result of past discrimination) as you like to call them, then perhaps you would find an audience more apt to listen and help your “cause”.
Are you suggesting that you want to see those problems tackled? Are you suggesting that we aren’t being proactive about addressing that situation?
And if you believe that we should be proactive in addressing that situation, what is the harm, exactly, in discussing how the situation arose? How does that harm anyone?
If you were talking about financial hardships in the black American community, but did not attempt to tie it to Slavery, you would be much, much better received by the general public.
That’s an interesting statement, Patriot, and one that I’ll think about.
After all, if the general public really would take racial injustice more seriously if we didn’t talk about where that injustice comes from, then it would be well worth considering.
However, my impression has been the opposite: that much of the general public is staunchly opposed to tackling racial gaps, because they mistakenly believe that these gaps are of recent origin and unrelated to past slavery and discrimination.
This is why, although of course we cannot change the past and should not dwell on it, I have had the most success in focusing people on these issues when I’ve laid the foundation by explaining where our racial inequities come from.
August 21st, 2009 at 3:36 pm
You only “seem” to be citing the Thirteenth Amendment, because you don’t actually cite it. You’ve made reference to “Constitutional Amendments,” “Federal court decisions,” and so on, without actually citing any of them. This makes it very hard to know which ones you’re talking about, and forces me to guess and to say that I’m not sure which ones you mean.
You say that there are 44 federal court decisions, for instance. You don’t say which ones you’re thinking about, and you don’t say anything about what those decisions say. You simply suggest that they somehow involve trying to solve problems of culture and integration.
Since it is obvious you don’t’ actually read links when I post them, I will be forced to copy and paste the contents, in their entirety, here. Of course, you’ll just ignore them as you always have, but none the less, here they are:
U.S. Constitutional Amendments
* Thirteenth Amendment (1865)
* Fourteenth Amendment (1868)
* Fifteenth Amendment (1870)
* Nineteenth Amendment (1920)
* Twenty-fourth Amendment (1964)
Federal court and court decisions
# Prigg v. Pennsylvania (1842)
# Dred Scott v. Sandford (1857)
# Slaughterhouse Cases (1873)
# United States v. Cruikshank (1876)
# United States v. Reese (1876)
# Strauder v. West Virginia (1880)
# Plessy v. Ferguson (1896)
# Williams v. Mississippi (1898)
# Cumming v. Richmond County Board of Education (1899)
# Guinn v. United States (1915)
# Nixon v. Herndon (1927)
# Nixon v. Condon (1932)
# Powell v. Alabama (1932)
# Grovey v. Townshend (1935)
# Breedlove v. Suttles (1937)
# Gaines v. Canada (1938)
# New Negro Alliance v. Sanitary Grocery Co. (1938)
# Lane v. Wilson (1939)
# Chambers v. Florida (1940)
# Smith v. Allwright (1944)
# Shelley v. Kraemer (1948)
# McLaurin v. Oklahoma State Regents (overturned low court decision by same name) (1950)
# Sweatt v. Painter (1950)
# Henderson v. United States (1950)
# Davis v. County School Board of Prince Edward County (1951) – the case arising from Virginia
# Briggs v. Elliott (1952) – the case arising from South Carolina
# Gebhart v. Belton (1952) – the case arising from Delaware
# Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka (1954) – the case arising from Kansas
# Bolling v. Sharpe (1954) – a related case arising from Washington, D.C.
# Lucy v. Adams (1955)
# NAACP v. Alabama (1958)
# Gomillion v. Lightfoot (1960)
# Boynton v. Virginia (1960)
# Baker v. Carr (1962)
# Heart of Atlanta Motel v. United States (1964)
# McLaughlin v. Florida (1964)
# New York Times Co. v. Sullivan (1964)
# Harper v. Virginia State Board of Elections (1966)
# South Carolina v. Katzenbach (1966)
# Loving v. Virginia (1967)
# Jones v. Mayer (1968) – A United States Supreme Court case which held that Congress could regulate the sale of private property in order to prevent racial discrimination
# Green v. School Board of New Kent County (1968)
# Swann v. Charlotte-Mecklenburg Board of Education (1971)
# Milliken v. Bradley (allowed for interdistrict integration) (1974)
Executive Orders and Proclamations
# Emancipation Proclamation (1862) – Issued by President Abraham Lincoln. It declared that all slaves in Confederate territory still in rebellion were freed.
# Executive Order 8802 (1942) – Issued by President Franklin D. Roosevelt. It banned racial discrimination in government departments and defense industries. It also established Fair Employment Practice Committee directed to oversee compliance with the order.
# Executive Order 9908 (1946)
# Executive Order 9980 (1948)
# Executive Order 9981 (1948) – Issued by President Harry S. Truman. It desegregated the armed forces.
# Executive Order 10577 (1954)
# Executive Order 10590 (1955) – Issued by President Dwight D. Eisenhower. It established the President’s Committee on Government Employment Policy. It aimed to eliminate discrimination in federal hiring.
# Executive Order 10925 (1961) – Issued by President John F. Kennedy. It established the President’s Committee on Equal Employment Opportunity, which later became the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, and requires equal opportunity in placement and promotion in the U.S. military.
# Executive Order 11063 (1962) – Issued by President John F. Kennedy. It banned segregation in federally funded housing.
# Executive Order 11114 (1963)
# Executive Order 11246 (1965) – Issued by President Lyndon B. Johnson. It prohibited discrimination in employment decisions on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.
# Executive Order 11478 (1969) – Issued by President Richard M. Nixon. It prohibited discrimination on certain grounds in the competitive service of the federal civilian workforce, including the United States Postal Service and civilian employees of the United States Armed Forces.
Federal bureaucracy
# Bureau of Refugees, Freedmen and Abandoned Lands (June 1865 through December 1868)
# Fair Employment Practice Committee (1941)
# President’s Committee on Civil Rights (December 1946 through December 1947)
# Civil Rights Commission (created 1957)
# Civil Rights Division in the Department of Justice (created 1957)
# Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (created 1964)
# Head Start (created 1965)
# National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders (created 1967)
Ignore at your own leisure.
This is about implementing the laws of our country, and giving money to people who have proven that they are entitled to it, under the law, for specific harm which has been done to them by people discriminating against them on the basis of race.
Specific harm? Read this carefully: Non-economic compensatory damages reimburse the plaintiff for losses such as emotional pain, suffering, inconvenience,
mental anguish, future monetary losses, as well as loss of enjoyment of life. WHAT SPECIFIC HARM ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? These are non-economic compensatory damages, and by their own legal definition, THERE IS NO HARM DONE. Non-economic compensatory damages loosely translates inoto “Figment of your paranoid imagination.”
Liberia was established while we still practiced slavery in this country, and was established by white Americans who wanted to get rid of blacks.
Get rid of blacks? Way to colorize your own argument with emotional banter intentionally designed to incite. I wonder how many other attempts at White apologism you’ll play off as “placating blacks”, a spit in the face of people that were far more altruistic than you. Once again, any attempt at altruistic objectivism is shattered by your clearly political bias.
Even if you believe that our levels of aid to Africa are high because of colonialism, what’s the connection to American slavery?
I must admit, you are the first Marxist I’ve encountered that had stated publicly that African colonialism and the American slave trade are not related. A first time for everything.
(1) Try to show that racial inequality and racial discrimination have been wiped out, or
(2) Try to show that we’ve expended enough effort and resources that these problems ought to be gone and that, therefore, they are intractable.
Your questions are biased from the gecko. They both require a religious-like adherence to the Marxist interpretation of history, an interpretation that is frequently displaced by the many, many, many well-documented manifestations of White apologism, manifestations you desperately seek to avoid, deflect, and ignore as “inefficient”.
Explain to me how it is that Africans and African Americans have such a vast difference of wealth? How is racism to blame when Africans LOOK JUST LIKE AFRICAN AMERICANS? Clearly, the president of the U.S. African Chamber of Commerce, has no idea what he is talking about: http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/14/africans.in.america/
Martin Mohammed, president of the U.S. African Chamber of Commerce, estimates there are 3 million African immigrants in the U.S. — about twice the U.S. Census Bureau estimate. He has heard from numerous immigrants struggling to find commonalities with Americans who share their skin color.
Mohammed emigrated from Somalia in 1998 and is now naturalized. He considers himself African-American, but “it does not mean that I have already assimilated into the culture.”
Values and upbringings may lie at the center of the cultures’ misunderstanding of each other, he said.
Many Africans come to the U.S. to escape dire conditions such as poverty or civil war. Their objectives are often advancing their education or finding good jobs, Mohammed said.
They also strive to reunite their families, or at least support them back home. Remittances from the U.S. to Africa total about $20 billion annually, according to the World Bank.
However, African immigrants find that education and good jobs elude their African-American brethren, and there is a perception that many African-American men aren’t committed to supporting their families, Mohammed said.
Do they get targeted by racism? Yes! Does it seem to bother them? Not in the slightest! Unless you’ve love to make the suggestion that people heralding from war-torn, disease-laden, post-colonial, inflation-racked countries who just happen to look just like African Americans and can barely speak proper English are magically better suited to thrive in America than the native black Americans who have been the recipient of White apologism for over 150 years.
If gave you two pictures of black people, side by side, could you tell me which one is an immigrant and which one is native? I’d love to know your secrets.
This is a good example of the kind of myth about race that I’ve been talking about here, and it’s why it’s so helpful to be specific.
The rise in single parenthood, among both white and black families, is a phenomenon of the 1960s and 1970s.
Yet the socioeconomic gap between white and black families has existed, with slight progress from year to year, since slavery ended in 1865.
Therefore, it is impossible for that gap to have been caused, even in part, by the fact that 54% (not 70%) of black children now live in single-parent households. For that gap to be relevant at all, you would have to argue that the racial gap suddenly narrowed, due to other, unknown reasons, and simultaneously increased for this reason, such that we find only small changes from year to year (and usually in a positive direction) as single motherhood became more common.
Good ol’ fashion statistical alchemy, the hallmark of Marxism…
I can do the same thing. I call your entire premise of a “socioeconomic gap” into question. How complex are your equations and your regressions? What factors are they considering? Are you considering debt accumulation as well over the years as well? Personal debt is often regarded as a powerful motivator for economic activity. It frequently creates virtual markets that are indistinguishable from actual economic activity. How do you isolate debt from wealth from economic disparity?
Those immigrants also report suffering from racial prejudice. They do not, of course, suffer from the effects of past racial discrimination, since they and their families were not in this country at the time.
Once again, are you suggesting that people heralding from war-torn, disease-laden, post-colonial, inflation-racked countries who just happen to look just like African Americans and can barely speak proper English are magically better suited to thrive in America than the native black Americans who have been the recipient of White apologism for over 150 years?
You are free to use that $1 trillion dollar I continue to use as the actual reason for this.
August 21st, 2009 at 3:42 pm
Ugh… nothing like copying from MS Word and pasting without reviewing first… I apologize for the misspellings and the lack of spacing.
August 21st, 2009 at 4:03 pm
Since it is obvious you don’t’ actually read links when I post them, I will be forced to copy and paste the contents, in their entirety, here.
You hadn’t provided links for any of these amendments, court cases, and so on.
Of course, you’ll just ignore them as you always have, but none the less, here they are:
I’ve responded repeatedly when you’ve referred to these various government decisions and programs. What, exactly, are you trying to say about them that I’m not understanding?
Specific harm? Read this carefully: Non-economic compensatory damages reimburse the plaintiff for losses such as emotional pain, suffering, inconvenience, mental anguish, future monetary losses, as well as loss of enjoyment of life. WHAT SPECIFIC HARM ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
That harm. Both economic and non-economic harm.
If you believe that people should be compensated, when the victims of legal wrongs, only for their economic suffering but not for anything else, then take that up with your legislators. But this isn’t an issue of race.
These are non-economic compensatory damages, and by their own legal definition, THERE IS NO HARM DONE. Non-economic compensatory damages loosely translates inoto “Figment of your paranoid imagination.”
Actually, you have the legal definition exactly backwards.
“Compensatory damages” refers to damages for specific harm done. “Non-compensatory” or punitive damages are awarded not for harm done, but as a deterrent to future wrongdoing.
I wonder how many other attempts at White apologism you’ll play off as “placating blacks”
I haven’t said that anything amounted to “placating blacks.” Those aren’t even my words.
I said that Liberia was founded by those who wanted to “get rid of blacks.” And that’s exactly right.
I must admit, you are the first Marxist I’ve encountered that had stated publicly that African colonialism and the American slave trade are not related.
You know anyone, Marxist or not, who believe that American slavery was connected to European colonialism? The U.S. didn’t engage in colonialism in Africa, and our slave trade was finished before that colonialism began.
They both require a religious-like adherence to the Marxist interpretation of history ….
For your information, the Marxist interpretation of history involves a series of stages of economic development.
In that historical interpretation, slavery and colonialism occur at distinctly different stages in history. And that interpretation is directly at odds with the history I’m presenting here.
Explain to me how it is that Africans and African Americans have such a vast difference of wealth? How is racism to blame when Africans LOOK JUST LIKE AFRICAN AMERICANS?
If you’re referring to African immigrants, it’s well documented that those with foreign accents from Africa or the Caribbean are perceived differently than black Americans with American accents. There are also differences in perception once people can identify someone as an immigrant.
The “vast difference in wealth” isn’t vast at all, but I’ve mentioned how arriving immigrants do not come here with generations of slavery and Jim Crow discrimination in their family histories, putting them in a very different situation.
Clearly, the president of the U.S. African Chamber of Commerce, has no idea what he is talking about
Well, I agree with his observations.
I call your entire premise of a “socioeconomic gap” into question.
Now you’re even questioning that there are social and economic disparities between the races in this country?
Here’s a report written by an individual whom I respect:
http://www.ips-dc.org/getfile.php?id=173
If you have any specific criticisms of the studies cited in the report to back up its figures on the racial gap, please let me know.
As for your theories on debt accumulation, I can’t make heads or tails of the brief economic description you offer. Perhaps you could point me to a fuller discussion, so that I could come to understand your concern about factoring personal debt into the equation?
the native black Americans who have been the recipient of White apologism for over 150 years
You haven’t said what you mean by “apologism,” but if you’re referring to the sporadic, modest programs to correct many generations of slavery and discrimination, then you should stop referring to them as if they should have magically cured those problems.
nothing like copying from MS Word and pasting without reviewing first
That’s no problem; we’ve all been there!
August 21st, 2009 at 6:00 pm
Racial injustice has been going on around the world for thousands of years. It didn’t start when America was colonized. Racial injustice is a TOTALLY separate issue than slavery. The policy of affirmative action is racial injustice. There is just as much racial injustice aimed at Latinos, and Islamics, and Orientals as there is aimed at black Americans. Nowhere in your writings are you defending those groups. Therefore you are only concerned with informing a nation or world about what happened years ago. You are not solely concerned with racial injustice or you would do something about it instead of languishing in the fact that a portion of this country held slaves CENTURIES ago. Unless you have been asleep the past 50 years, racial injustice didn’t end in the 60’s or 70’s. Its alive and well today. And it always will be if people like yourself continue to insist that slavery is the basis for it.
August 21st, 2009 at 6:13 pm
Racial injustice is a TOTALLY separate issue than slavery.
That depends on your definition. If you’re talking about prejudiced behavior, then certainly.
If you’re talking about racial justice in the sense, say, that no child should be born in this country with different opportunities because of their race, then yes, our history of slavery has left an enduring legacy. It’s not just about the prejudice we still see in our society; it’s about the fact that black families have far less than white families, because of slavery and Jim Crow.
There is just as much racial injustice aimed at Latinos, and Islamics, and Orientals as there is aimed at black Americans.
No one is saying otherwise.
Nowhere in your writings are you defending those groups.
Not on this page, that’s true. But certainly elsewhere on this web site.
Therefore you are only concerned with informing a nation or world about what happened years ago.
That happens to be one of our primary missions, yes. Not our only one, but it is one of our core functions, and we believe it’s an important one.
You are not solely concerned with racial injustice or you would do something about it instead of languishing in the fact that a portion of this country held slaves CENTURIES ago.
We believe firmly that since racial justice in this country is so powerful impacted by that history, it’s essential to understand the history in order to approach the problem of racial justice today.
This is especially true when so many Americans even reject the importance of racial justice because of myths about this history or about how impacts our society today.
[Racial injustice] alive and well today. And it always will be if people like yourself continue to insist that slavery is the basis for it.
The nation’s history of slavery and racial discrimination is certainly an essential basis for racial injustice in our society today.
Just consider that it was that history that caused our society to develop our current understanding of race. The idea, for instance, that our current president is “black” (rather than white, or of mixed race) depends on notions developed to justify and perpetuate slavery. Ditto notions of racial inferiority which cause so much of our society’s lingering racial prejudice today. Those ideas have not existed in all times and places.
Consider, too, that racial injustice is not simply a matter of ongoing prejudice, but also the legacy of lesser socioeconomic status that black families endure today. Where do you think this came from? It is the result of slavery, of doing nothing for slaves once they were free, and then forcing the freed slaves and their descendants to endure generations of brutal discrimination and mistreatment, much of it sanctioned by law, which persisted until well into the lifetimes of many people alive today.
That is why this history is essential to understanding where we are today, and how we might begin to move forward together.
August 22nd, 2009 at 10:47 am
Katrina, I was refreshed and elated to read the article that you wrote on CNN.com. Thank you for your courage and willingness to look at slavery from a different vantage point.
I must say that as I read through the comments on this post that my spirit was grieved, but not surprised. I no longer expect people to understand, appreciate and empathize with the Black experience in America. History and my personal experience has shown me that empathy is a CHOICE that most are not willing to make.
However, I will not stand silent as the degree of the atrocities and the legitimacy of the inequities of my people are relegated to comments such as “just get over it”, “just move on”, “it’s over now”…etc.
From the ride over on disgusting disease infested ships, to the inhumane public and private beatings, families separated from each other, brutal lynchings, fighting wars for a country that would not fight for you, building restaurants that you could not eat in……there are no programs, financial contributions or apologies that can ever mend or remove the imprint of slavery in the lives of Black Americans.
I certainly do not desire or expect any apologies. The Bible says to “Owe no man nothing but to love your neighbor as your self”. I think a little bit of that will solve a lot of problems in this world.
August 22nd, 2009 at 11:40 am
I have read every word of this discussion (which is hard for me to do because I do not like reading long passages on the computer because it hurts my eyes) but James, I still do not understand what it is you want us to do.
Forty acres and a cow? Would that help? Please spell out what James DeWolf Perry would do if he were in charge. You keep on saying the same thing over and over but never give an answer to the question that CultState is asking. What do you want? Not vague answers on achieving racial equality but concrete plans.
Quite frankly, I do not know what else could be done. If the targeted audience does not do its part to achieve that equality than no amount of money will ever close that gap.
In other words, if a mother does not sit with her child and read to him, be concerned about her daughter’s whereabouts and talks to the teachers of her children or if a father does not step up to the plate and behave responsibly toward his family then neither money or pity will have any affect.
August 22nd, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Thanks, Liz, for sharing honest and important concerns with us.
James, I still do not understand what it is you want us to do.
That’s because I’m not asking you to do anything, Liz.
Katrina Browne’s commentary on CNN suggested that everyone needs to have more empathy when it comes to racial issues, and I think, from responses like the ones on this page, that this requires that most people have a much better understanding of our history and our current situation regarding race. That’s my focus.
Katrina also calls in her commentary for exploring solutions to existing gaps in health, education, wealth and other areas, and she suggests that these solutions should be race-neutral at times and race-based at other times.
Please spell out what James DeWolf Perry would do if he were in charge.
You can find out more at my blog, “The Living Consequences,” but in a nutshell, I believe that this nation suffers from serious misunderstandings on the subject of race. I’ve spoken with groups across the country, and very few people understand the basic facts of our history as they affect the present day, or the status of race in our society today. (You’ve read the comments on this page, so you can see exactly what I mean.)
As a result, my own, personal recommendation would be for education and dialogue to further understanding of the history and legacy of slavery and race in this country, and to bridge the chasm that separates the perspectives of so many honest, decent Americans on this issue.
I believe that this is the only way to lay the groundwork to move forward, together, on concrete solutions to our lingering racial problems, and I believe that those who have been through this process do find themselves able to begin addressing those issues in concrete, constructive ways.
You keep on saying the same thing over and over but never give an answer to the question that CultState is asking.
He hasn’t asked what I would do, at least not about any specific problem. He keeps referring to a wide variety of unrelated government programs and policies, and suggesting that they should have been enough to deal with what he refers to as cultural problems associated with racial integration, whatever that means.
Quite frankly, I do not know what else could be done.
Well, that response doesn’t make any sense to me, Liz.
After all, you’re specifically talking about what could be done to achieve racial equality.
Yet if the material gap between the races is much, much larger than what has been spent to overcome it, then it’s no surprise that we haven’t achieved racial inequality, and no one can seriously suggest that they don’t know what else might be done.
Now, I’m not suggesting spending more money, and certainly not on the kinds of approaches that have been tried before. But when I hear this kind of talk, I have to wonder whether the person thinks that we’ve spent much more on racial justice than we have, or that programs like affirmative action or welfare have primarily benefited blacks rather than whites (which isn’t even remotely true, so programs like these couldn’t possibly be expected to close the racial gap).
In other words, if a mother does not sit with her child and read to him, be concerned about her daughter’s whereabouts and talks to the teachers of her children or if a father does not step up to the plate and behave responsibly toward his family then neither money or pity will have any affect.
This is certainly true, Liz. I couldn’t agree more about the importance of such values.
However, this comment implies that the racial gap exists because of faulty values, while enough money has been spent that it should have overcome the material gap.
In fact, however, we know that the racial gap has existed since the time of slavery, and has narrowed only modestly, without much help from government spending. The gap wasn’t created by faulty values, and it surely can’t be solved simply by improved values.
Your comment also implies that black families lack these values significantly more than white families. (Otherwise, how could these values be the cause of racial inequality, or holding back its elimination?)
In fact, racial inequality itself implies that black families will be disproportionately poor, and we know that poor white families (especially those in poor, white urban neighborhoods) also tend to exhibit these kinds of dysfunctional behaviors. We know that these behaviors aren’t just linked to poverty, but also to neighborhoods lacking in well-maintained infrastructure and jobs, which is another legacy of racial discrimination in black neighborhoods. It’s also possible that many generations of brutal racial discrimination and neglectful or malicious treatment by government agencies and their representatives have left cultural attitudes, such as despair or distrust, which do not simply disappear with a generation or two (which is how long it’s been since the civil rights era began to change matters).
I’m not suggesting that changed values might not be an important part of the solution. I’m simply suggesting that we shouldn’t overestimate how much of the racial gap is caused by differences in values, or neglect to remember where any racial trends in attitudes come from, or we will never be able to assess what needs to be done and how much responsibility our society bears.
August 22nd, 2009 at 1:42 pm
You can make light of 40 acres and a mule, but I wonder how many Walmarts and shopping plazas are sitting on 40 acres.
it is not about what you should do. It is about changing a mindset that cultivates and propagates prejudices and sentiments that lack truth and substance. How many many Black families have you visited? How many are you intimately been involved with? But yet you assume that the “Targeted Audience” does not read to their children and do not CARE about the whereabouts of their children. Last I checked, Blacks are people just like you are who love and care about their children just like anybody else regardless of race.
it is amazing to hear people talk about slavery and racial injustices and dehumanize the topic. Just because it did not happen to you, does not mean that it did not happen. Maybe you will never know the effects or feel the weight of social injustice, but that does not negate the reality of it.
There is no such thing as a payback or retribution for slavery. My ancestors died in hope of freedom and equality. What can anyone repay them??? Nothing!!! But what we can do is be sensitive enough to step in each others shoes at times and to look at life from another perspective with respect and empathy.
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:13 pm
The area that I live in is rural. Three high schools in the county. No rich vs. poor schools. Same teachers, classes etc. Whites consistently outperform blacks and hispanics. A very sad situation and one that is repeated throughout the country. Why? The black and hispanic kids don’t lack the brain power. They are just as smart as the white kids.
Another telling statistic – the “Alternative Learning Centers” (read “where the bad kids go”) in all three high schools the students are disproportionately black and hispanic.
So to your thinking we ( “we” being the white population) have failed these kids. In the above illustration all that would be needed was more education for the white folks in our community to (hope tags work)
“further understanding of the history and legacy of slavery and race in this country, and to bridge the chasm that separates the perspectives of so many honest, decent Americans on this issue.”
And exactly what would that accomplish? Can’t you just picture it? A bunch of farmers and ranchers, septic tank cleaners, plumbers, some professional types, truck drivers, Wal-Mart workers and teachers all sitting around in the biggest school auditorium on a hot Texas night being told that the reason the black kids are not performing well in school is because of slavery. A suggestion – don’t do this. I would not want to read about how you needed surgery to remove a longhorn from, ahem, a delicate area.
C’mon James! The reason why those kids are doing badly is because of those values that you were so dismissive is lacking. Bill Cosby agrees. When the parents are absent or uncaring you have the problems of poorly performing students that turn into poorly performing adults who do not have the socio-economic advantages that a good education provides. Is this problem rampant in the black community? Yes. And no matter how much you want to deny it, no matter how much you want to call it something else, it exists. If you want to trot the racial equality gap issue out and dress it up and put lipstick on it and claim it is the legacy of slavery to assuage your guilt then be my guest.
But do you really think that you are performing a service to the black community? By continuing to insist on victim status and not getting to the root of the problem as it exists NOW you can only manage to exacerbate the issue and create even more hard feelings by insisting it is all the fault of white people. Indeed, judging by the responses on this page and the one on CNN (which, very interestingly, was closed after only nine comments. Never saw that happen before) I would say that you have hit a raw nerve.
So instead of agreeing with your black colleagues that the “man” is holding them back (but then if they are your colleagues it would seem that they would have accomplished their goals in life) maybe you should ask if they ever had a book in their house, if their parents pissed them off by insisting they be home by a certain time, if they were told that so and so could not be their friend because he/she was a bad influence. I have worked for the schools and for my community’s small police department. I have seen first-hand the total lack of caring by some parents and it bothers me to no end that the majority of the parents and the kids in trouble came from the black and hispanic community. The only black police officer on our force just shook his head after one particularly ugly confrontation at the station that these people “just don’t get. You have to be there for your kids.”
I am completely aware that there are bad schools in inner-city neighborhoods, that there is racial inequality and there is much work to be done. But it is not one-sided.
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:14 pm
Tags work! Problem is that I did not end the tag. Sorry.
[No problem, Liz! I took the liberty of editing your comment to add the end tag, so the italics appear as you intended them to. - James]
August 22nd, 2009 at 4:20 pm
Whites consistently outperform blacks and hispanics. A very sad situation and one that is repeated throughout the country. Why?
There’s actually been a great deal of research on this question, Liz.
One answer is that we’re only talking about averages here. And on average, black families often pass down several types of disadvantages to their children.
One disadvantage is simply poverty: white, black, or Hispanic, students from poorer families tend to do significantly worse in school, for a variety of reasons. And the average white family in this country has a net worth that is $142,600 more than the average black family’s. You can dismiss the racial equality gap as lipstick on a pig, but it’s real, and you can be sure it has real effects.
We’ve seen, for example, that as the socioeconomic gap has narrowed from time to time, black student performance relative to white has improved dramatically.
There are other reasons, of course. For instance, I can’t honestly say whether it’s true that for some black families, particularly in poorer or more segregated neighborhoods, there is more skepticism about the value of education and its contribution to one’s success in life. What I can say is that for many generations, black students were not allowed to receive quality education and those students who persisted and did well in school were not allowed to receive higher education or better job opportunities. Naturally, this generated deep skepticism about whether black students ought to be encouraged to persist in school, and attitudes like this do not usually disappear in a generation or two.
In the above illustration all that would be needed was more education for the white folks in our community
I didn’t mean to imply that only white people need more understanding, or that even greater understanding by everyone would cause racial problems to vanish.
As I tried to suggest, it’s a first step that allows people to drop attitudes based on ignorance or fear and approach issues of race with an awareness that allows appropriate solutions to be perceived and considered.
The reason why those kids are doing badly is because of those values that you were so dismissive is lacking. Bill Cosby agrees.
And I don’t disagree. But we shouldn’t pretend that those values come from nowhere, or are inherent in people because of race. They derive in part from poverty, in part from generations of discrimination and mistreatment, and in part simply from despair. Attitudes like that don’t simply vanish overnight, and the answer isn’t to tell people that the responsibility is solely theirs and unrelated either to past racism or to the material gap which has existed since that time.
Is this problem rampant in the black community? Yes.
Research suggests that you are overstating this, to say the least.
do you really think that you are performing a service to the black community?
I would never think to put it that way, no. But do I think that I’m doing a modest amount of good by helping to dispel pervasive and corrosive myths (lies, really) about their history and race? Yes, I do. Do I think I’m doing a service by helping people, both black and white, to confront awkward truths that they would often rather ignore? Yes, I suppose I do.
So instead of agreeing with your black colleagues that the “man” is holding them back ….
You seem to have a rather stereotyped view of black people, Liz. Or perhaps it’s accurate of your own black colleagues, I don’t know. But I’ve never heard any of my black friends, family, or colleagues say anything like this.
maybe you should ask if they ever had a book in their house, if their parents pissed them off by insisting they be home by a certain time, if they were told that so and so could not be their friend because he/she was a bad influence.
I think this is a tremendously important point, Liz.
There is a powerful scene in the documentary that Katrina directed (Traces of the Trade, the subject of this web site) in which my own father talks about whether or not he experienced any privilege which helped allow him to go to Harvard.
My father initially said no, that he had earned his way into Harvard based on good grades. He denied that privilege played a role, because his parents weren’t wealthy.
Eventually, though, he agreed with us that he did benefit from his family environment. His own father had a similar education, and his parents were able to provide many intangible forms of assistance, from helping him to learn to read at an early age, to filling the house with books, to always speaking and acting on the assumption that if he worked hard, he could expect a top-flight education and that it would serve him in good stead.
So I agree that there are benefits to positive attitudes in parenting, especially towards education in particular.
However, many of these are transmitted from generation to generation, and within communities. It is much easier to be this type of parent if you benefited from the same example when you were growing up, and if you have financial resources, and if you have a strong education yourself, and if you have a surrounding community filled with similar families and with institutions which reinforce this message.
These easier paths are less available in any poor family, or in any poor neighborhood, regardless of race. This is, naturally, a burden which will therefore fall harder on groups that are poorer, like blacks or Hispanics.
These easier paths are also less available in families which don’t have a history of middle-class stability or higher education in previous generations (or basic education that was rewarded with better job opportunities). This is one reason why discrimination or other hardship in one generation affects opportunities in the next.
I am completely aware that there are bad schools in inner-city neighborhoods, that there is racial inequality and there is much work to be done. But it is not one-sided.
Perhaps we aren’t far apart, Liz. I’m certainly not trying to suggest that values and individual hard work aren’t important, no matter what the source of disadvantage may be. And it sounds like you aren’t looking to downplay the existence or importance of racial inequality, either, even if you seem reluctant to believe that centuries of mistreatment produced that gap, or at least that it’s worth talking about.
Can’t you just picture it? A bunch of farmers and ranchers, septic tank cleaners, plumbers, some professional types, truck drivers, Wal-Mart workers and teachers all sitting around in the biggest school auditorium on a hot Texas night being told that the reason the black kids are not performing well in school is because of slavery.
I don’t have to picture it, Liz.
I’ve lived that experience, many, many times over. I’ve lead discussions in large school auditoriums (700+ people), in churches, community centers, and college classrooms across the nation.
We’ve talked about the nation’s history of slavery and racial discrimination, and how that history still has effects today.
We’ve spoken about hard truths, ones that white people tend not to want to hear, and ones that black people tend not to want to hear.
And you know what? By and large, people start talking differently. It turns out that many of the less constructive attitudes out there, on all sides, stem from misconceptions about where we are today, and how we got here. With that in mind, people start to be much more open to listening to one another, and to embracing comprehensive solutions which allow us to treat our fellow citizens fairly, with respect for their heritage as well as for their individuality, without sacrificing our principles and values.
August 24th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
bleeding heart liberals.you make me sick WHITE GUILT
September 4th, 2009 at 8:59 pm
Go to hell katrina start adding up how many whites pay taxes and how many blacks need welfare and how many years.blacks make up the majority of welfare reciepients and the minority of payers in. They have been payed. And only a hand ful of southerners owned them bought from africans so Im tired of the B.S. There are white slaves in the world today and no one is helping them. When do we make rules for welfare stating a max you qualify no ifs and or buts.
September 4th, 2009 at 10:51 pm
Donald, thanks for sharing your thoughts with us, and I’m sorry that Katrina’s views bother you so much. I do appreciate, though, that you took the time to offer us specific reasons why you are so upset.
For the record, blacks and citizens of other races pay the same taxes that whites do. If those groups pay less in taxes on average, then it’s because they have less in the way of income and assets, and that’s the result of how this nation treated non-whites in the days before it was quite so enlightened.
As for welfare, whites make up the largest group of welfare recipients, not blacks.
I’m also not sure why you believe that “blacks” have been paid for slavery and racism with welfare. Most black citizens do not receive welfare, so they can hardly have been paid back with it. And welfare programs have paid out far more to whites than blacks.
Turning to your point about history, American slaves weren’t owned by “only a hand ful of southerners.” Quite the opposite. Slaves were widespread in the American colonies and the United States prior to emancipation. In the north, for instance, up to one in four white households owned at least one slave. More broadly, the benefits of slavery were widely distributed, as slavery dominated the nation’s economy.
In terms of modern slavery, you might want to look around this web site. You’ll find that there are organizations working hard to combat modern slavery (and not just of white people), and we do what we can to promote them.
October 23rd, 2009 at 3:05 pm
Leave Katrina Browne and all the Dewolf descendants alone. At lease they know were they came from. You envy their strengh, while you hide your weakness with words
November 10th, 2009 at 10:43 am
Nice article Katrina. I also liked your documentary. I truly believe that you and your family members are good hearted people and want to right a wrong that was done by your ancestors’ centuries ago. However, I do not believe that you are going about it the right way. Just because you and your family members suffer from white guilt does not mean that it must be transferred to other human beings. This county is made up of many people of different ethnicities. It is not fair that other races have to pay reparations to black people. Many white people too emigrated after the civil war and had no part in slavery. I do not believe that the descendants of slave owners should have to pay money since they had no part in it. All this money for reparations will come from tax payers’ money. Therefore it is not fair for the millions of people of different ethnic background who dutifully pay taxes every year to have their taxes taken and given to black people. These people only want money to get away from doing work and want to become instant millionaires overnight. Do you think that is right? How can we be certain that every black person is a slave descendant? After the civil war many Africans emigrated here from Jamaica, Haiti and other countries from Africa. Do you think they too should get reparations? Not at all!
Everybody’s ancestors have gone through hell. Not one of their descendants asks for reparations except the black people. I do not see anything special in their request. If they want reparations they should ask the Africans that sold them. Their own people caught them and sold them to the white people. I do not think the Africans will be too happy when they are asked this.
Even Africans that come here get caught up in this slave issue and pull the race card. I have seen many immigrants come here from all over the world and many have made it big in this country through hard work and determination. If they can succeed here, so can African Americans or Africans. There are a few African Americans that are happy to be here and work hard to live the American Dream. America has paid its debt to them and they have a lot of benefits that no other race enjoys. America has also apologized to them and admitted that the slavery issue was wrong. We even have the first black president. Also, black people are allowed to mock other races but nobody can mock them in public or on TV. So please stop this nonsense about reparations and let’s encourage everyone to live the American Dream by working hard. After all, the only people who keep the race and slave issue alive are the black people. If they are given reparations then other races too will demand reparations. You are treading on dangerous ground here.
November 10th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us, James, and for being so candid about such controversial issues.
I’ll try to respond briefly to the various points you raise, so that you (and other readers) can have some idea of where we’re coming from.
First, this issue is not (at least in our minds) about guilt. I don’t know where you got the idea that our family suffers from “white guilt,” but I can tell you that I don’t remotely feel any guilt about what other people did centuries ago, and we don’t encourage anyone to think in terms of guilt.
This is about acknowledging our history as a nation and a society, and about accepting responsibility for the legacy of that history today.
Second, you quite rightly raise the concern that people should not have to “pay money” for things they didn’t do.
However, this issue is not about reparations for slavery, but about acknowledging and addressing the lingering harm caused by slavery and racial discrimination. This means, first, that it isn’t necessary to endorse reparations in order to tackle this issue, and second, that this has nothing to do with whether the members of our society were responsible for committing the wrongs which we’re trying to address.
The plain fact is that if you live in our society, then you benefit from this history at the expense of others. This isn’t your fault, but it’s a reality.
What, if anything, should be done about this reality is another matter. But it’s important to note that we all benefit in this society from the legacy of slavery and discrimination. This is true even if, to use your example, our ancestors immigrated here after the Civil War.
Third, I’m sure you’re not, in any way, racially prejudiced. But without meaning to, you sound like you’re perpetuating racial stereotypes when you make comments like this one:
“These people” aren’t of one mind, any more than you and I share the same opinions.
Moreover, reparations advocates (and I’m certainly not one) aren’t arguing for a handout, and aren’t looking for a luxurious, work-free life.
When you imply that they are, it sounds as though you aren’t willing to recognize a central fact about our nation today: that there is a vast inequality between white and black families, in terms of education, jobs, housing, income, and wealth, and that this inequality can be traced definitively back to slavery and Jim Crow-era discrimination.
You can certainly disagree with reparations proposals, but to suggest that these are selfish requests is to deny, in effect, that there is a substantial injustice at the heart of these proposals.
Fourth, you’re quite right that there would be vast inequities involved in handing out checks to black Americans. However, the reparations proposals currently before Congress are focused not on checks for individuals, but on broader programs which would attempt to minimize lingering injustice while also minimizing any unfairness inherent in the solutions.
Fifth, you rightly point out that everyone’s ancestors have suffered at one time or another.
However, there is a significant difference between black families in this country and white families of various ethnicities. Black families, for the most part, have endured chattel slavery, imposed on them by our own nation and society. These families, again for the most part, suffered appalling discrimination for the next century. And all black families, even those who came after slavery and Jim Crow, have endured substantial racial prejudice, which continues, albeit less frequently, even today.
This history leaves most black families in this country at a significant disadvantage, one which can easily be traced back to actions by our government and institutions. The historic harm caused, by contrast, to certain populations in Europe is not one for which our society bears any clear responsibility. The discrimination experienced by certain European immigrant groups arriving in the U.S., meanwhile, was both much lighter and has long since been erased, to the point where it is hard to trace back harm or to find inequalities among families today.
I have, of course, omitted the experiences of other racial and ethnic groups which have suffered cognizable harm in our nation’s history.
Their stories are highly relevant here, however, if only because these groups, too, have sought (and in some cases, won) reparations from our nation for their suffering.
Sixth, it’s true that Africans sold other Africans into slavery. However, contrary to your suggestion, in our experience filming this documentary in Ghana, most Africans were quite willing to acknowledge the part their ancestors played in the transatlantic slave trade.
The point, however, is that this is not, and ever was, about race in the sense in which you mean it. Just as it would be unfair to simply give out cash to any American of African descent, this is about our nation’s responsibility for its actions, not white people’s responsibility. It makes no sense to excuse our nation for its own actions, simply because those actions weren’t solely the responsibility of white people.
Seventh, most black Americans, not merely “a few,” are happy to be in this country and to work hard to enjoy the American Dream. The problem is that, unlike most immigrants, black families in this country have inherited significant disadvantages from our own history. These cannot simply be wiped out in a single generation (or even two).
Eighth, you say that “American has paid its debt” to black Americans.
When did that happen? How was it done?
It’s true that black Americans benefit from laws which attempt to prevent further discrimination and injustice, at least in certain formal settings like schools, polling stations and workplaces.
It’s also true, however, that affirmative action and civil rights laws have operated mostly to stop further discrimination.
Simple math shows that these policies have barely made a dent in the socioeconomic gap between the races created by our history of slavery and discrimination.
How, then, has the nation “paid its debt” to its black citizens?
Ninth, you say that “America has also apologized to” its black citizens, and “admitted that the slavery issue was wrong.”
When did this happen? The last time I checked, Congress had still been unable to pass an apology for slavery. And no president had actually issued an apology in his own name, either.
Tenth, and finally, you conclude by saying:
Are you saying, James, that you believe that the harm caused by slavery and discrimination should simply be allowed to stand?
Are you saying that the answer is that black people should work as hard as they can, while everyone who has not suffered from this history (but, indeed, has benefited from it) also keeps working hard and staying ahead?
I’m not sure how else to interpret this conclusion, unless it’s based on a misunderstanding about the nature of the harm, or about what happens when some start with a disadvantage and everyone tries equally hard to get ahead.
January 12th, 2010 at 7:25 pm
Thank you James for the reply. Sorry to see that you have missed my point. I see that you have mentioned that Ghana has admitted that it took part in the slave trade. Then let Ghana and other African countries start paying reparations towards the black people in the new world. If these African countries do it then the US can follow suit. After all, the slave trade originated there. I’m not saying that the harm caused by slavery and oppression should be allowed to stand. I do agree that there should be an official apology and that should be it. I know that no official apology has been issued. Americans many of them white admit that slavery and Jim Crow laws were wrong and have helped the Black Community. Many whites especially in the North supported the civil rights movement. America has also elected its first black president. I just do not believe that people should get reparations for what happened to their ancestor’s generations ago. England and Australia apologized to the children they deported many years ago to Australia and Peru also apologized to its citizens of African descent. I do not think any money was given. Reparations should only be made if the victims are still alive. Not generations later. That is all I’m saying. If you want to go ahead and pursue official apology, I will back you 100 percent. I will not back you as far as reparations are concerned. Every race is racist towards other races and has their own prejudices which are hard to dispel. Making the world a better place for everyone and ensuring that everyone is treated right is what you and everyone of us should be working on.
January 12th, 2010 at 8:57 pm
Thanks for returning to share your thoughts with us, James.
First, I don’t know how you can argue that the U.S. ought to allow impoverished African nations to pay reparations for slavery first, and then the U.S. can do likewise. Either the U.S. doesn’t owe reparations for slavery, or it does. Surely if the U.S. has such an obligation, then that debt isn’t dependent on other nations paying their own debts?
If this is simply a way of reminding everyone that African societies were full participants in the slave trade, then I would hope every visitor to this web site would learn that fact, if they don’t already know it. But unless you’re arguing that the U.S. should pay reparations, then it hardly makes sense to argue that African nations, which do not enjoy benefits from the transatlantic slave trade, should try to find the resources to pay reparations, and to do so first.
You do argue that the slave trade “originated” in Africa, but I’m not sure what you mean. The transatlantic slave trade began when Europeans first purchased slaves on the coast of west Africa to transport across the Middle Passage. If you mean that there were slave trades elsewhere on that continent before the arrival of Europeans, then the same is true of Europe, which had already been engaged in slave trading for thousands of years.
Second, I have no problem with your position that no one should receive reparations for what happened to their ancestors. Such a proposition would violate basic values at the core of our society.
However, this is a straw man argument. Contemporary proposals for reparations for slavery are almost always focused on harm suffered directly by people alive today. This harm is the result, in part, of slavery and the ways in which that suffering has been transmitted down through the generations. The harm addressed by reparations advocates is also that which originated in the brutality of the Jim Crow century, in which black families in all parts of the country suffered further discrimination, and were largely prevented from making progress towards equality. Finally, of course, there remains lingering discrimination today. All of this adds up to considerable harm endured by black families in 2010.
On the other side of the equation, of course, are the tremendous benefits garnered by this nation as a result of slavery and discrimination, most of which have found their way into white families. We can argue about what, if anything, can or should be done to address the dramatic inequalities arising out of this history, but it is hard to deny that substantial injustice has been transmitted down through the centuries.
Now, I raised these points before, but you’ve just returned and made much of this issue, saying “Reparations should only be made if the victims are still alive. Not generations later. That is all I’m saying.”
I’m not sure what isn’t clear about what I’m saying, but this is about addressing harm suffered today, and not about harm suffered in the past. In the language you’re using, the victims to be compensated are people alive today.
Third, while I’m not arguing for reparations, money has indeed been given in many instances after a government has apologized to those it has wronged, or to their descendants. Let’s consider an example closer to home: The U.S. government, under presidents Reagan and Bush, awarded $1.6 billion to the Japanese-American survivors of our WWII concentration camps, and in cases where the victims were already dead, to their heirs.
Fourth, you say “Every race is racist towards other races.”
This is not actually true. In fact, not only does prejudice towards other races vary tremendously from society to society, but not all societies even think in terms of “race.”
Europeans and Americans did not start out believing that blacks are inferior, or even that there were distinct races of white and black people. Many societies today do not see race in these terms at all, and many societies express what prejudice they have on a basis other than race.
You are of course correct that in this modern global age, with Western ideas of race so prevalent around the globe and the legacy of European dominance often defining how people of various ancestries are viewed, many societies do exhibit at least a degree of prejudice according to race.
Even in these societies, however, it is often not possible to term existing biases “racist.”
Fifth, and finally, you conclude by saying, “Making the world a better place for everyone and ensuring that everyone is treated right is what you and everyone of us should be working on.”
This is surely the right attitude to hold. However, you seem to be consistently downplaying the ways in which various groups in this country were not treated properly in the past, suggesting, for instance, that African nations bear more responsibility for what happened here than Americans did, or that many Americans were on the right side during the civil rights movement. You also seem to be downplaying the profound injustices that are still with us from this history.
Each person can have different ideas about how to address these injustices, or even whether they can be addressed at all. So I certainly understand if you reject the idea of reparations, especially the old-fashioned idea of payments to the descendants of slaves for the suffering of slaves (which most of us would reject, too).
But if you are truly committed to making the world a better place for everyone, and to ensuring that everyone is treated properly, then how can you simply brush aside the injustices in our society today that result from this history, saying merely that an apology would be all right “and that should be it”?
February 19th, 2010 at 8:17 pm
DeWolf: You haven’t said what you mean by “apologism,” but if you’re referring to the sporadic, modest programs to correct many generations of slavery and discrimination, then you should stop referring to them as if they should have magically cured those problems.
I agree. No amount of government intervention, altruism, money, pity, or lawsuits can cure the problem. Therefore, we should stop throwing these things at the problem and let blacks figure out their own mess.
February 20th, 2010 at 12:11 pm
No amount of government intervention, altruism, money, pity, or lawsuits can cure the problem.
You’re simply assuming that no amount of money, and no plan of action, can cure this problem.
My point, which you’ve acknowledged, is that there has as yet been no effort to try, and so there’s no reason to assume the effort wouldn’t work.
Therefore, we should stop throwing these things at the problem and let blacks figure out their own mess.
There are two problems with this suggestion.
First, the United States is simply not throwing money or resources at this problem. There are broad efforts to address poverty or to promote education, for example, among all American citizens. But these programs are carried out in a manner that is, by and large, independent of this particular history and its consequences. As a result, these programs lift all American families equally, and in fact, because they do not take much account of prejudice or structural inequities, may actually help black families less, in the long run, than white families.
This suggestion could not even be offered, I think, without the widespread myth in this country that black families are the recipients of disproportionate aid on the basis of race, or that programs like affirmative action disproportionately benefit black citizens. If you believe that aid programs for the poor, or programs to assist in building the middle class with aid for education or homeownership, are a waste of money, then that’s a separate issue. But these are simply not programs which grant excessive benefits to black Americans or seek to do anything to close the racial gap which this generation has inherited.
Second, the problems of black families in this country are emphatically not “their own mess.” We’re talking about racial inequality and related issues which are the direct result of centuries of slavery and another century of Jim Crow violence and discrimination. This history is not the fault of anyone alive today, and certainly not that of black Americans. This is a legacy that we, as a society, have all inherited, and it does not necessarily fall exclusively to the victims of this history to repair the harm that has been done.